Adding TV shows into the mix that were average made it too much to bother keeping up, and I haven't watched MCU since then.
Movies and TV Shows
A community for entertainment industry news and general discussion about movies and TV shows.
Rules:
- Be civil.
- Please do not link to pirated content.
- No spoilers in the title of submissions. And please use spoiler MarkDown in the body of discussions. This is a courtesy to other users.
- Comments solely criticizing headlines and/or journalism will be removed for being off-topic.
Right? Like I'm not against going to the movies for a MCU show. But it just feels like I have to do homework to catch up before I can do so.
They did the same shit with their comic books. All of these overarching/crossover story lines made it so you had to do research before picking up a new title.
Compared to Hellboy where there’s cliff notes that reference to real world myths and obscure early seeded canon. The homework isn’t necessarily; it’s interesting and fun. It hints at more going on behind the scenes that you can discover and imagine for yourself. Marvel killed too many interesting villains off the bat, replaced wonder with cliffhangers, and exposition dumped anything worth wondering about to show off how completely connected their whole universe is.
I saw it today. It was fine. It's far from "the worst movie in the MCU" like some reviews I've seen. And I didn't watch Ms. Marvel or Secret War, either. Still followed the story fine (I am a casual comics fan so I'm already vaguely familiar w/ Ms. Marvel and the Kree/Skrull war, in fairness).
Biggest contributor to the low B.O. in my opinion was the studios dragging out the writers & actors strikes and not being able to mount any publicity for the movie. I only remembered it was opening this weekend when I saw all the negative headlines about it coming out.
Ms. Marvel was pretty good. The villains were entirely forgettable, and some of the CG was phoned in. But the heart of the show, the main characters, and the humanity of it were all pretty good.
The villains were entirely forgettable
As most of the Marvel villains, sadly.
Were they trying to keep the movie release a secret for a reason?
Seems like a lot of us had no idea it was coming out this weekend…
Writers strike and actors strike, meant that only minimal promotion was possible
much less what its even about. pass.
Maybe is a good time to go back and get good stories scripts and hire good directors.
That's just putting a bandage on a bigger problem. They need to get rid of "the Marvel method". Changing entire scripts in post production doesnt work anymore, Marvel isnt some small studio like in 2008.
I don’t understand that to begin with. They tout the whole “connected universe” angle but then if you look even slightly behind the curtain it’s obvious there’s nobody overseeing the lore between projects. Not when one is beginning while another is undergoing reshoots and rewrites. It’s not possible and it shows, just like how Tiamut has been sticking out of the ground in universe for like 2 years and all we’ve gotten is a joke reference in She-Hulk lmao.
Great my fucking YouTube feed is gonna be drowning in so many "go woke go broke" posts from now til the end of goddamn time thanks Disney you fucks.
At this point they're doing this shit on purpose to get more people voting red so they won't ever pay taxes again ever.
It has higher user score than critics score on RT, so at least they cannot complain about biased journalists.
I honestly believe Captain Marvel was the start of the downfall of Marvel. Not because of the cast, sex, or anything along those lines.
I believe they over did the character. They made her way to damn strong which made all the other characters pointless.
Remember when a literal god, the most advanced mech, and the super soldier with all the stats struggled with Thanos? Then Cpt Marvel swoops in destroys a couple of ships and takes one on the chin like nothing, that was the moment. The first movie benefitted from a month release from Endgame. Everyone thought it would have something major in it.
The movie wasn't horrible, it followed most of the other mediocre movies. Origin story where we meet a villain that we will never see again and some powers we will never see again. The acting and the cast were good but it was just ok.
There is zero consistency in powerscaling even scene-to-scene within a single movie. I appreciate a good galaxybrain take but I think you aren't correct here.
Remember Strange participating in a ~5 v 1 vs Thanos and losing before going one on one and almost drawing? Absolute "conservation of ninjutsu" shit. That's without even considering the fundamental brokenness of the Time Stone, which he never properly uses in Infinity War, but Thanos actually does use it somewhat properly to basically negate a third of the movie.
I honestly believe Captain Marvel was the start of the downfall of Marvel. Not because of the cast, sex, or anything along those lines. I believe they over did the character. They made her way to damn strong which made all the other characters pointless. Remember when a literal god, the most advanced mech, and the super soldier with all the stats struggled with Thanos? Then Cpt Marvel swoops in destroys a couple of ships and takes one on the chin like nothing, that was the moment.
I don't understand this criticism at all.
First of all, it was Wanda who had Thanos almost beaten, which is why he had his ship fire on the ground. So Wanda presented a greater threat to him than Captain Marvel did; so great a threat that he was willing to sacrifice his entire army to try to take her out. I think it was Feige who said, around the time of Endgame or maybe shortly thereafter, that Wanda was the most powerful character in the MCU. But people don't criticise Wanda for being overpowered and making all the other characters pointless.
Second of all, while Danvers did take down one ship (not two, not that it makes a difference), they could have found ways for several other characters to do the same (eg Doctor Strange via illusions, Wanda or Thor through sheer power, Iron Man through nanotech magic) - they just wanted Captain Marvel to make a big entrance because she had been teased at the end of Infinity War (and then also in her own movie prior to Endgame), and we hadn't really seen her manifest her full power earlier in Endgame.
But the whole point of that her late intervention in the final fight was that Captain Marvel was NOT the overpowered deus ex machina that many fans falsely deride her to be. Because in a one-on-one fight with Thanos, Thanos disposes of her easily - they trade a few punches, he throws her into the ground. She comes back, and he punches her out of frame and out of the film (until the epilogue). The final fight came down to Captain America, Thor and of course Iron Man, which it was always going to - those being the three keystone Avengers of the MCU.
That's also why all the founding members of the Avengers went unsnapped at the end of Infinity War. Markus and McFeely and the Russos knew they were making an Avengers movie, not a Captain Marvel movie. Markus and McFeely knew that fans would have felt rightfully betrayed if a character, who had only been introduced to the MCU a year or so before, had swooped in and saved the day after a decade-long build up. So they made sure she didn't. But more fool them - they still cop the same criticism.
And I say all this as someone who thinks that both Captain Marvel movies (and most of Larson's performances in the MCU) have been decidedly mediocre, though not for any reasons related to her power level.
I saw the movie with my kids and they really enjoyed, but I completely agree with you on all points. I stay up with all MCU releases because I enjoy them, but Captain Marvel has the same problem DC has with Superman: they're virtually invincible. There's no real physical struggle and therefore the fights are just eye candy with nothing really on the line.
So now the writers have to figure out how to make them vulnerable and it's always personal moral conflict or relationship challenges. Those can work if the writing is actually deep and developed, but not when the core expectation from audience is action and explosions. There's just not the time to develop the story.
They should go watch One Punch Man to understand how to make these characters work.
Can't wait for the neckbeards to blame the show being about de wimmens as the cause rather than increasingly nonsensical oversaturation
@neme I remember the advertising for The Marvels was pretty bad. You had commercials that felt like advertisements for the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. One ad I got was like “Remember when Tony Stark built his first suit and became Iron Man? The Marvels, in theaters this November”
Haven't seen the new movie. Even though it was panned I liked the first.
The biggest issue is just Marvel OVERLOAD in general, people are finally starting to get tired of it.
We've had so much Marvel for so long. People are just losing interest in general.
The movies have also significantly declined in terms of quality as well. I'm still not convinced super hero fatigue, or something similar, is actually a thing. If you start serving up crap people stop coming.
No. I wish people would stop repeating this marvel overload/fatigue idea - I'm not convinced it's a thing respectfully. The truth is, lately Disney has been pumping out a lot of mediocre content. A good story is a good story, period. This movie was not really good, and it required someone to have watched a bunch of other not-great Disney+ shows.
Marvel has sooo many good stories and content they can dig up from their comics, but ultimately the business side of picking the content and shaping it for maximum profitability is sort of where shit gets weird. One theory is little kids want to go to the movies and make the parent bring them, so the movies are produced (catered) with that goal in mind.
Rather than marvel/superhero fatigue, I think it's more of Disney dropping the ball (like they did with the star wars movies, inb4 they made billions, we all know the movies sucked).
Post infinity war, my opinion is This entire parallel worlds/timelines/dimensions storyline is a bit confusing on what exactly the endgame plan is
It is absolutely true for me, and the people saying it aren't making it up.
You hear it so often because those people believe it. And there are a lot of people saying it.
I know you're a super fan that wants ALL your stories. But you don't make up the movie watching population.
The issue I think is the crossovers. This movie requires you to have seen Captain Marvel, Wanda vision and miss marvel. They need to go back to making movies of a single character and doing a crossover movie every once in a while. I love the MCU but I'm already skipping movies and shows, so I don't wanna watch a movie and not have any idea who the characters in seeing are
Are these newer movies really that much worse in general or has the audience just finally gotten tired of the entire MCU? I saw every single one up until the second Spider-Man flick and many of them were just sort of lame. Movies like Doctor Strange, Captain Marvel and Black Panther and the Ant-Man movies which all released in the MCU's most dominant period leading up to and in between the Thanos movies were pretty bad and they still made a lot of bank.
I watched all those mid movies because I was invested in the shared continuity and wanted to see the different branches of the universe collide with each other. When they finally did, that investment just kind of dissipated, but I think the final nail in the coffin for me was when they announced the Disney+ Marvel shows at which point it just became too much of a time commitment to keep up with.
I wouldn't personally say that it has anything to do with fatigue or oversaturation. I think the reality of it is that the majority of these movies have no heart, feeling, or direction. The obvious counter example to this trend is the Guardians of the Galaxy films, all of which are dripping with heart and are obviously thoughtfully crafted, and are all around good moving despite being in the MCU. If this universe of films were all given the same amount of care and thought as those films, I think they would all be successful. But alas, capitalism.
I think the fatigue is a product of the fact they have no heart or feeling
irony is fun and all but ultimately people want sincerity. Irony and wit are like icing people like them but there has to be something more substantial there or you just walk away feeling unsatisfied and slightly sick
Terry Pratchett's work is a good example of how this can work he's very ironic and uses a lot of witicisms but underneath it all there is a clear depth of feeling and the books are also full of profound and sincere statements and moments
Good. Less marvel movies, the better.
I'll take that $47M if they don't want it
Who could have ever guessed audiences would start getting disinterested in these movies? 😱
I actually had no idea this was out already. I've been watching Loki. It really seems like they should have spaced these further apart.
I don’t even want to go see a good Marvel movie in the theater. I’m certainly not going to go watch some mid bs.
Isn't $47 million dollars for one weekend pretty good? What did they spend to make the movie?
Apparently it cost $274 million.
How did they manage to spend that much lol. The whole LOTR trilogy cost $300m and even adjusting for 25 years of inflation I don't think that price makes any sense.
Everything costs over 100M these days and usually much, much more. I heard someone say The Marvels was $250M
People already didn't care for Captain Marvel, so it'd have to be a really good movie to convince people to watch it. The fact that it's even worse and more generic than that is the nail in the coffin. I'm surprised it managed to get almost $50 million at all.
Captain Marvel grossed $426.8 million in the United States and Canada, and $701.6 million in other territories, for a worldwide total of $1.128 billion.[4] It had a worldwide opening of $456.7 million, the sixth-biggest of all time, and biggest opening for a female-led film
But go off then
I'll be honest, I actually loved Ms. Marvel and will definitely watch The Marvels as soon as it hits streaming, but pretty much the only movie I can think of on the horizon that could get me to physically go to a filthy, disgusting movie theater filled with horrible annoying movie-goers is Dune part 2. The experience of going to see films in theaters lost all of its appeal to me in recent years, and there's always one motherfucker on their phone the whole time that no one will do anything about.
a filthy, disgusting movie theater
Maybe it's because I live in a nice area, or maybe it's because you haven't been to the movies in a long time, but your description doesn't match my recent experiences at all. Even AMC here has a really nice theater now, with big plush reclining chairs, great sound, and nice screens.
I think they’ve just gone back to the well too many times and it’s starting to run dry. Prior to Marvel reinventing the genre, I was never a big fan of superhero movies. Other than the occasional ones like Watchmen or Unbreakable, I found them formulaic and vapid. The MCU combined a sense of humor with outstanding sfx and excellent casting. I think I’ve seen all of them, many multiple times, and I own most of them.
For me, the Avengers conclusion was disappointing. It wasn’t as bad as GoT S8, but it really felt like everyone just wanted to be done with it. It’s kind of ruined the franchise for me, but honestly I was probably getting close to done anyway. I did think the new Guardians was okay, but the rest of them have once again become vapid and formulaic.
It has nothing to do with wokeness. I think Our Flag Means Death is one of the greatest tv shows of all time, and I’d rather watch Barbie again than those last few Marvels - I actually enjoyed that one.
Look, I just don't feel like sitting in an enclosed space for a couple hours breathing the same air as a bunch of randos these days.
Also, fuck Disney.
Maybe because they basically keep making the same movie over and over again. Stop beating the horse.
So a couple of points...
Marvel has really felt like it's lost it's vision since Endgame. Everything from Iron Man forward had been building to that point and once they hit it, it's like they forgot what they were doing.
The current big bad didn't get introduced until Loki, a Disney+ show, and if you look at the properties:
Endgame - 4/26/2019
Spider-Man: Far From Home - 7/2/2019
Wandavision - 1/15/21
Falcon and Winter Soldier - 3/19/21
Loki - 6/9/21
That's a full 2 year gap and three properties before anyone gets a sense of where the next phase is going. Then:
Black Widow - 7/9/21 (unrelated flashback)
What If? - 8/11/21 (unrelated)
Shang Chi - 9/3/21 (unrelated)
Eternals - 11/5/21 (unrelated)
Hawkeye - 11/24/21 (unrelated)
Spider-Man: No Way Home - 12/17/21
Using Spider-Man to crack open the multiverse first announced in Loki 6 months previously was a good idea, but there was no mention of Kang or what threat he represented. There were also FIVE unrelated properties between Loki and Spider-Man making it easy to forget Kang was even a thing, assuming people even caught the Disney+ show in the first place.
Moon Knight - 3/30/22 (unrelated)
Doctor Strange: Multiverse of Madness - 5/6/2022
A direct follow on what was done with Spider-Man, 5 months later, again, no reference to Kang.
Ms. Marvel - 6/8/22 (unrelated)
Thor: Love and Thunder - 7/8/22 (unrelated)
She-Hulk - 8/18/22 (unrelated)
Werewolf By Night - 10/7/22 (unrelated)
Wakanda Forever - 11/11/22 (unrelated)
Guardians Holiday Special - 11/25/22 (unrelated)
Phase 5:
Quantumania - 2/17/23
First film in Phase 5 makes it clear (finally) that Kang is the next big bad, almost 2 years after the character was introduced in a TV show, but it's not the years that were the problem...
It was the hours of unrelated content spread across 11 movies and TV shows, 14 if you count What If, Spider-Man and Doctor Strange hitting the multiverse angle but failing to mention Kang.
Guardians of the Galaxy 3 - 5/5/23 (unrelated)
Secret Invasion - 6/21/23 (unrelated)
Loki Season 2 - 10/5/23
Marvels - 11/10/23 (unrelated)
And here we are... ~~I haven't actually seen Marvels yet, so I don't know how it fits in to the overall plot.~~ Alternate universe hole. No Kang. I've heard rumors of an X-Men stinger similar to what they did with Xavier and Reed Richards in Doctor Strange.
2 and a half years of churning out unrelated properties after having three phases of tightly integrated continuity is NOT how you keep your existing audience.
So all of that being point 1.
Point 2 is this... In the comics nobody really cared about Carol Danvers. She didn't become interesting until the modern Captain Marvel reboot in 2012. In fact, they replaced her a couple of times. Before that, her major story arc was getting her powers stolen by Rogue who would later join the X-Men using both her own power stealing mutant abilities and Carol's flight, invulnerability and super strength.