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‘I don’t date at all now’: one woman’s journey into the darkest corners of the manosphere
(www.theguardian.com)
yeah people suck welcome to Earth
this post was submitted on 30 Apr 2025
333 points (92.4% liked)
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Any decent man who has spent enough time in locker rooms understands that ~30% of men are shitty people and of those, somewhere around half are probably violent.
Once you have a daughter or put youraself in womens shoes, you realize how terrifying those odds are for women trying to navigate this world.
This is 100% correct. I have 4 daughters myself and an amazing wife. I see it almost daily. In the current landscape, it's even harder. My older female family members don't even care. They "got theirs" and could give a shit about women growing up in this world.
I will always defend women, and I patiently wait for the day a woman in my presence gets disrespected by some Chad, Andrew Tate loving motherfucker.
I'm here for all my human sisters, as we should all be equal on this planet. Fuck these men with no morals and no human equality compass. Scared of something they don't understand or what incels tell them to act like. Its madness and makes me sick.
This is why when my daughter announced she was gay, I was absolutely thrilled. She gets to go on this new journey with the part of humanity that 1) can't cause a teen pregnancy and 2) much less abusive
Though, do be careful because there are abusive same-sex relationships and sometimes it's even harder to get away because the people around you are telling you "but women can't be abusers!"
OMG I've witnessed so many abusive lesbian relationships. Women can be straight up psychos too, and are often a lot more calculated about it.
What places do you go? My pool is super chill, I have seen all kind of uplifting moments. Maybe certain gyms have a selection bias? I don't know.
I was thinking high school locker room when I read it. Cause it fit my experience there.
These are forums with millions of members on mainstream sites such as Reddit, Discord and 4chan. These are men writing about their wives, their mums, their mate’s daughter, exchanging images, sharing women’s names, socials and contact details, and no one – not one man – is calling them out. They’re patting each other on the back.
I suspect there is some amount of survivorship bias type thing going on here. The type of men to hang out in such places are the type that enjoy it, and as such would never call out such behavior. The men that don't enjoy such will tend not to come across such content in the first place.
So the first group just doesn't care, the second doesn’t see it in the first place.
There is also probably some degree of the second group of men acknowledging that trying to call out such behavior won't go very far. If you said "hey don't share this woman's pics" on 4chan, you're going to immediately get laughed at, ignored, and probably called a bunch of slurs. And then they'll keep on doing it because you told them not to. And that's in no small part because these places are puedo anonymous.
Men can't get away with such behavior as easily outside of the internet. Calling them out in real life is far more likely to go somewhere. However ther are caveats. Again comes the survivorship bias thing I mentioned. But worse, if done in real life and calling out that behavior backfires, it becomes a teaching moment. "Don't tell other men to behave decent or they'll ostracize and harass you".
It's a fucked up situation all around.
Let’s not forget that the people that call out said behavior get banned and their comments deleted.. you can’t authentically claim nobody calls them out because you don’t actually know if anyone is or not.. because ban.
I think so to. I've seen a lot of pornography and never encountered a community like that. I think the vast majority of dudes are just skimming the surface and never get into communities about it. Most of the guys i know would think doing so was weird. I had a couple dudes try to show me pictures their girlfriends sent them in the past but I did call them out for that.
I think the vast majority of dudes are just skimming the surface and never get into communities about it.
I've come across them. But only on 4chan, which there is fuckall anyone can do about, short of breaking into their site.
Most of the guys i know would think doing so was weird.
I would hope the same of my friend group. I've tossed a lot of friendships in the trash because of their behavior. So those that remain are hopefully those that are actually good.
An apropos of that. I'm Chinese/Viet half-and-half and was born in the UK. I have friends in the UK that are half-Chinese and half-British (white/caucasian). I had no idea that there were so many "half-Chinese" specific groups online.
Also, I can't remember but there was some business about having a Chinese dad was better than a Chinese mom (I could have them switched). However, it's mainly boys/men with this problem and they're having issues dating or with school and everything and blame it all on their Chinese parent. My friend tries to chime in to talk some sense into them but the self-victimization is really strong and he gets pushed out.
Asian Mom White Dad is more likely to be seen as fetishized, or in a monetary relationship, especially if the man is older than the woman. White Mom Asian Dad is seen as a sign the man is rich or success to pull a white woman, especially if she is younger.
However, it’s mainly boys/men with this problem and they’re having issues dating or with school and everything and blame it all on their Chinese parent.
Yeah that touches on a related problem, the fact that we've designed society to be anti-social.
- You can't easily hang out with friends, because they're half way across the city/state/etc.
- Nobody has consistent free time due to the enormous energy and time requirements for a financially stable life if you can even have one.
- There are no third places to meet people
- Cars divide everything with highways, busy roads, and slow traffic.
It's incredibly hard to have a social life, and as a result people lash out. And they tend not to care about if the thing they lash out against is the correct thing to lash out against.
And it's a self feeding cycle. Because men tend to lash out in the form of right wing populism, and any woman who knows anything will steer clear of that nonsense. So it feeds into itself.
In your case it's self hatred racism, but it's driven by the same forces.
- Cars divide everything with highways, busy roads, and slow traffic.
I'm glad you pointed this out. I realized how isolating cars are after moving to a walkable neighborhood. I'm convinced walkable neighborhoods foster community.
I stumbled upon /r/theredpill(?) many years ago as a 17 year old girl who had never had a boyfriend, and it lead to me developing a severe distrust of men for several years after. I simply had no solid concept of this type of male sex culture, and it eventually lead me into the rabbit hole of the manosphere. I read through their new posts and "strategies" frequently, mostly out of a sort of morbid fascination, but also a desire to protect myself from men.
It made me believe that, as I grew into a young woman, I had to be careful, as men are terrible predators that only care about sex and the feeling of conquest. I started to understand that the way I perceive relationships might be vastly different from a certain male ideal. Ironically, what I wanted from a relationship was inspired by a quote written by Louis de Bernières, a man:
Love is a temporary madness, it erupts like volcanoes and then subsides. And when it subsides you have to make a decision. You have to work out whether your roots have so entwined together that it is inconceivable that you should ever part. Because this is what love is. Love is not breathlessness, it is not excitement, it is not the promulgation of promises of eternal passion. That is just being in love, which any fool can do. Love itself is what is left over when being in love has burned away, and this is both an art and a fortunate accident. Those that truly love have roots that grow towards each other underground, and, when all the pretty blossoms have fallen from their branches, they find that they are one tree and not two.
The only thing that undid those feelings was putting myself in the position to make friends with guys – "beta males", specifically, made me feel a lot less threatened – and coming to understand that what I feared was a certain type of man, which did not represent every man. Now, I feel that I'm quite capable of navigating around toxic masculinity and keeping it out of my life, and have been with my partner for over a decade in a relationship that has developed roots.
Honestly knowing what I know about guys, I wouldn't date them either if I was a chick.
I read through their new posts and “strategies” frequently, mostly out of a sort of morbid fascination, but also a desire to protect myself from men.
Sound advice, it's useful to recognize the bullshit lingo & rhetoric that's all a part of these idiotic schemes (see: "Pickup Artists"). I realized that one of my acquaintances had started slipping those catchphrases into convos years ago, and it caught me off guard. They hadn't seemed like much of an asshole before, but it raised my hackles knowing that they weren't just reviewing the media, but integrating it into their personality/beliefs without any sort of filter.
r/FemaleDatingStrategy is/was a subreddit as well (seems inactive since 2023), it was basically the same as r/theredpill, just for women.
They have moved to a dedicated website now.
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I think part of why she didn't seen men fighting some of the shitty stuff online is due to the echochamber effect of those communities. Any resistance is downvoted, dogpiled with hateful comments, and maybe even removed by a biased mod. A lot of the good men who would defend in those comments don't even browse those specific forums because of how toxic and shitty they can be.
Instagrams algorithm purposely pits extreme opposing view points against each other to drive engagement via hate comments to sell enraged consumers knickknacks and graphic T-shirts.
Christian vs atheist
Red vs blue
Abortion vs choice
Even vegan vs carnivore
The faster we abandon social media sites the better.
Additionally, those kinds of shitbags routinely get tossed out of respectable places. What brings the manosphere, and things like it, together is usually a shared experience of rejection and isolation.
Also why would I ever recognize a space like that and not run away. "Calling out" is still participation, and why would I want to participate (incl. from the legal perspective). I have the moral obligation to do that because...I am man? As if being a man was being part of a club.
I believe we (as in, people) all have a responsibility to hold each other accountable. But we can also only do so much, and inserting yourself into a toxic community founded for the sole goal of normalizing that toxicity in some misguided attempt to reform such people is beyond what any one person can be expected to engage with.
Precisely. It's completely different from doing that in your group of friends, where confrontation is a way to establish common values, and in an internet cesspool where anyway I am going to be moderated out.
Just yesterday I was reading a great article about how social medias compare to TV when it comes to feeling part of a group. "Calling out" people in such places wouldn't be anything else that virtue signaling (to yourself) to reaffirm your own identity (I stand up to sexism), and at the same time allow those people to reaffirm themselves (I get confronted because I am speaking truth).
Basically it would be at most a performance.
I have the moral obligation to do that because...I am man? As if being a man was being part of a club.
They explicitly don't want us non-shitty men there to harsh their vibe and will refuse to listen, so yeah, what the fuck are we supposed to do?
If I see it happening IRL I shut it down and use my 6'4" powers to look down at whoever's doing it and give them a good scare, but I'm not gonna go to the fucking incel forums and make my day worse for no goddamn reason
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The good men aren't there and don't even know what's going on. I've used Reddit and Lemmy but have blocked the NSFW/NSFL stuff. There is no opportunity to denounce or report because I remain deliberately blissfully ignorant.
Right. As a guy, I've never received a nude pic of a girl from a friend. I've never had a friend tell me that he sends girls dick pics. I've never been in an online community where photos of women are traded like what is described above - I wouldn't even know where to start looking for this. I've never heard about anyone I know having their pictures shared, or anyone I know sharing pictures of someone else in an unethical way. This is quite simply a social sphere that I am completely excluded from. The idea that I have any responsibility or capacity to police this kind of behavior is ludicrous - what am I supposed to do? Talk to my friends and say "So, look at any unethical porn lately, bro?" Or spend my time seeking out toxic communities so I can debate them/report them, instead of going outside and having a life?
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What's the point of wrestling with a pig? You both get muddy, and the pig likes it.
Maybe it's because I grew up with the old, "mean" internet, but my response to communities full of trash is to leave them alone and let the blind lead the blind. Seriously, what the hell is arguing with them going to do? They expect to be challenged, they will not see reason, they will not suffer to be helped, and you are not going to be the person who changes that.
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I don't date either.
People are bastards and I like my peace. No woman is worth giving up what I've built.
No good woman would expect you to give up anything for her. I think we need to zoom out on this problem and recognize the issue is really just quality vs. non quality humans. Quality people are in rare supply. That’s why you have to hold on when you find one.
Relationships just don't work like that. You can't have your freedom AND be in a relationship.
I fear that you may not know what a good relationship is.
As a middle-aged man, I agree that there are some completely shitty men (loosely) out there. A real man should be compassionate, caring, protective when wanted, supportive when needed, and should never do the absolute scum things this poor woman experienced. This is on fathers (mostly) and mothers to teach their sons what it means to be respectful to everyone around them, not just women but men as well. Fathers need to model the behavior so their sons don’t grow up to be terrible humans. It is on parents to address online safety. It’s uncomfortable to do this but really, really needed. As far as the man sex culture, I’m not sure that is a fair statement. That would be like saying a woman sex culture. From what I’ve seen in my life, you will always be proven wrong if you stereotype anything about any perceived group of people.
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When I was in HS if a girl wanted to show you some racy pics she'd just show you on HER phone.
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