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[–] [email protected] 58 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Wouldn't it dispell the magic before it got to the ring? So your gun just exploded and your ring is now somewhere downrange?

[–] [email protected] 36 points 2 weeks ago (3 children)

You'd have to mount it on a wire a bit past the end of the barrel, or custom create a barrel that expands toward the end. Depends on whether dispelling the magic is an instant transformation, or if it "grows" at some rate.

[–] dnick 11 points 2 weeks ago (4 children)

If it dispels magic before it gets to the ring it's going to be an issue...

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[–] Susaga 14 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Yeah, if its range is enough to dispel a lock, then it must be at least an inch. So the cannon ball grows while an inch down the barrel.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

Meme is still correct though as that's my face while calculating what to change so they don't TPK or something when they try it on the next encounter....

[–] Susaga 11 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Rogue fires gun. Cannonball grows and shatters the gun. Gun pieces fall to floor in front of rogue. If you look, the ring is still in the wreckage, and still usable. Enemy spends a turn just looking at the rogue in amusement. Turn after goes as usual.

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[–] [email protected] 49 points 2 weeks ago (6 children)

I imagine that the momentum would be conserved. So if the rifle normally shot a 30 gram ball at 300 meters per second, it would shoot a 5 kilogram ball at around 23 meters per second.

  • The larger size and lower speed of the cannon ball would likely reduce the range.
  • The larger size of the projectile would spread out the impact causing reduced damage.
  • The ballistics would be significantly different making it far harder to hit with.

This is how I would do it in my game:

  • Reduce the damage from 1d12 to 1d10
  • Change piercing type to bludgeoning
  • Reduce range from 40/120 to something like 20/60
  • Add knockback of 5 ft to medium targets or 10 for small

The really neat thing would be shooting non standard rounds that wouldn't be possible from a musket like incendiary or smoke rounds.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

I think damage reduction would be even more than that. The damage a projectile does to a target is directly related to its kinetic energy which is calculated as e = ½mv². So when you increase mass but reduce velocity you also reduce the damage by the square of the difference in velocity (I think). As long as the damage just relies on the physics of the projectile and not magic, that is.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (12 children)

This exact mechanic is present in the Mistborn book series. I don't want to give spoilers because I recommend the books so highly, but I love the hard science nature of the way the magic system interacts with physics.

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[–] [email protected] 38 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

I love how everyone is discussing the physics of a cannonball gun DIY setup in a game where magic can instantly teleport people or turn a person into a huge dragon.

I'm not complaining, I just find it amusing.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (10 children)

Point is well taken, but D&D magic doesn't take physics off the table, it violates physics within strict limits. Mundane physics still operates. As a DM a good reason I can think of for invoking physics in cases like this is that the player's plan depends as much on physics as it does on magic, and I don't think their cannonball trick would work. The gunpowder imparts the same momentum to the shrunken, diminished-mass cannonball as it would to a regular bullet. When the cannonball's original size and mass are restored, it still has that much momentum - which I imagine will carry it a few feet.

Fortunately my game group includes a very smart player with a master's degree in physics, who is very quick at computing such things. I would absolutely trust her estimate of how far the cannonball would go.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 weeks ago (4 children)

Inversing this gets really fun: enlarge spell on a tungsten/mithril bearing or toothpick. Pack enough charge to fire it out of an actual piece of siege equipment, hello nearly relativistic projectiles. Ship or battlement mounted rods from God.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 weeks ago (3 children)

Well in that case, the reverse would also be true. So my barbarian can throw a cannonball at someone. How about if the mage readys the shrink spell to target the cannonball just as it leaves my hand? Conservation of energy would dictate that:

Decisions like these are what makes TTRPGs so fun, and I enjos every minute of these sort ot discussions.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

I see people make comments like this about shows, movies, etc. and I've never understood this line of thinking. I generally expect things to work the same as they do in real life unless it's explicitly explained otherwise. Not sure if I'm the odd man out in thinking that way or what.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

No, you're right IMO. Just because something is different from our world doesn't mean all logical consistency is off the table. This idea is called versimilitude.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 weeks ago

you sorta said it but an exception is places like the fae wilds, where you assume physics is only barely present enough to hold your organs together (hopefully)

[–] [email protected] 37 points 2 weeks ago (5 children)

I'm here for it, if they earn it. I love players having OP bullshit magic, but it's no fun unless they work for it. Changing magic artifacts isn't easy; everything about them is intrinsic to how they work. This is why wizards are useless without their cookbooks detailing every little step, and sorcerers always get weird side effects with their "fuck it, we ball" casting. This is where you tell the players that they're going to need to return to the forge that cast the ring, or find a way to get help from someone high up in the jeweler's guild or something like that. Sure, you could always try to DIY your magic canon, but you're basically doing fantasy electrical engineering with vibes and a screwdriver; ask yourself, what could go wrong?

[–] [email protected] 17 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

That's how I run my table. I am a merciful god, but also a petty god if you reach for the heavens a little too hard. D&D magic already screws with thermodynamics to the point where free energy just exists, so I try to draw a line just short of where anyone figures that part out.

In the back of my mind, I'm always asking the question: "Why wasn't this loophole exploited in the world already?" That usually prompts a suitable response.

you’re basically doing fantasy electrical engineering with vibes and a screwdriver; ask yourself, what could go wrong?

Exactly. In the situation that OP raises, I ask myself: "Does Newton or Gandalf win this argument?"

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

In the situation that OP raises, I ask myself: "Does Newton or Gandalf win this argument?"

Exactly. Does the bullet remain moving at the speed it already was? Or does the conservation of momentum require that it slows as it grows larger (and heavier)? If so, it would basically be useless as a weapon, because a handheld firearm couldn’t exert enough force to actually fire a cannonball any effective distance; At most, it can only exert as much force as the recoil exerts on the character. And a 12 lb cannonball would get rolled across the floor by the recoil, but not fired across the room.

I’d probably rule it’s somewhere in between, because “rule of cool” is just plain fun and that’s why we’re all playing the game. Having it be a full blown “it fires cannonballs at full speed across the room” weapon is obviously super broken. But maybe I rule that the bullets aren’t near the ring long enough to fully regrow, but it gets a +2 modifier to damage because you’re effectively firing rifle sized rounds with a handgun.

Or maybe I rule that they slow down as they grow, but the spell takes some time to wear off, which limits the maximum range and effectively makes it a devastating close-up weapon, but relatively useless at longer distances.

The point is that the players worked for it, and get some sort of payoff. Even if it’s not a complete game-breaking reward.

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[–] [email protected] 22 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

If it is a muzzle loader, no you don't.

[–] threelonmusketeers 10 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

I suppose you'd have to remove the ring while loading in that case?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Good way to lose the ring.

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[–] [email protected] 18 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

I think the party missed another interesting (albeit elaborate) use.

Find a large pointy rock. Shrink it down to the size of a small arrow head. Attach it to an arrow shaft such that the head will slide off the end of the shaft without too much effort (staying embedded in the target). Have the rogue launch it at the big bad, then have the barbarian or monk punch the arrow wound while wearing the ring.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 weeks ago

This is creative. I like this.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

So does the thing use a portable hole for a magazine or something? Also, does the shrink spell reduce the weight too?

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Enlarge Reduce specifically says the weight changes by 1/8th every time you go down a size category.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (2 children)

Fun fact, 1/8th of a 12 pound naval cannonball is 1.5 pounds. Translating in modern terms to about a 40mm projectile. Even shrunk these would be one hit kill projectiles in real life.

Another fun fact, 5 tons of cannonballs would be just under a thousand 12 pound cannonballs.

Third fun fact, their party now needs a way to transport 1,300 pounds of this guy's ammo.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 2 weeks ago (4 children)

if the ring permanently ends magical effects that enter its area of effect, that's unusual and probably has a bunch of unexpected uses.

It it merely suppresses magical effects in its area, I guess the projectiles would briefly return to full size when in the anti-magic field, and return to small size afterwards? Doesn't seem very effective unless you like point blank someone.

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

So that is engineering. Is this character an engineer with knowledge of magic, physics and mechanics?

It's fine and easy for a player to think in term of game mechanics. But the actual process is not so goofy. And the character is not the player. The dice decide after that.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 2 weeks ago (3 children)

I dunno sounds like the only even vaguely engineering part is glueing a ring to the end of a pistol? If that's considered out of the box clever enough to require a check I can only assume D&D takes place in the systemic lead poisoning dimension.

[–] dnick 6 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

I think the engineering part kicks in once the cannonball leaves the ring, or maybe around the mass of the shrunken ball. If the cannon ball retains it's mass in it's shrunken size does the gun have enough power to move it? If it does, then the gun is a ship cannon already, just a convenient size. If it doesn't and can only shoot because the balls are as easy to fire as regular shot, then as soon as the ball exits the ring it is a cannonball being moved with the force of a small shot and likely drops to the ground an inch or so past the muzzle.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

Many of the things we take for granted as obvious these days were anything but until recently. Take bolt cutters for example. The compound lever that let's them function so well seems like something that would have been around for centuries, but in reality wasn't something that was widely used/understood until the 1890s when they were marketed as a wonder tool.

On the other hand, this is a game and should be fun regardless of how anachronistic it is at times. At least as long as the witch/duck proportionality is maintained. There has to be at least some realism.

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[–] ArbitraryValue 12 points 2 weeks ago (4 children)

Because I hate fun, I assume that the people in a fantasy world aren't all fools so if there's an application of magic that seems obvious but isn't already happening in the setting, there's a good reason for that.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

There's also the rule of "if you can do it, so can NPCs". Even if your character has thought of something no one in the universe has thought of before, word will get around.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 weeks ago

I have it as: "cool idea, i'll let you get away with it once. Start abusing it and all the NPCs start using it." works pretty good.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 weeks ago (3 children)

This is a good take, but it partly depends on the setting. Specifically, if these magic artifacts are fairly rare and valuable (even something meager like this ring), it's entirely possible that people haven't explored that kind of application of magic. It could also be viable if there are very few inventors/scholars in the setting.

In any case, the conservation of mass thing another commenter mentioned would make this less viable, so you're right on the money. That being said, laws of physics can be bent for rule-of-cool if that's your table. Personally, if I were DMing it, I'd probably try to find a way to balance between realism and making their research process hilarious and/or dangerous, with the end result being them producing something useful but not gamebreaking (e.g., you can carry and deploy the cannonballs, but the gun doesn't really fire them, but in combination with a method of flight, could still be awesome--or they apply this method with a large boulder and have that to work with instead).

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 weeks ago (4 children)

Would the momentum stay if the mass increases?

[–] [email protected] 25 points 2 weeks ago

Lol the ball just falls out the end like a defective Acme gun

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

As another poster mentioned, this is likely the reason this isn't already done in the fantasy setting. Either the mass is the same (in which case your flintlock isn't going to launch it terribly far) or the mass changes and it would reduce momentum.

That being said, it's still a useful way to transport cannonballs, and could still be quite useful. Just not quite a "free" Catapult spell on demand.

[–] sugar_in_your_tea 3 points 2 weeks ago (3 children)

If the mass increases after the ball is already moving, then velocity should be conserved and momentum would increase with the mass. That breaks all kinds of physics rules, but this is DnD in a magical universe, there are worse violations going on.

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[–] Mnemnosyne 4 points 2 weeks ago (3 children)

As with most of these things, this doesn't actually work. Antimagic fields suppress magic inside them, they don't dispel it. So the bullet would be unshrunk while inside the field (and the field would affect the bullet while it's still inside the gun's barrel, so that would turn out really badly) and then instantly shrink again as soon as it exits the field.

Ironically, this is actually just an overly complicated way to do something the spell alone can achieve. You can end shrink item with a command word from the caster. It would require two people working together, but if the caster readies to give the command immediately after the gun is fired, the bullet would be unshrunk midflight and have the desired effect!

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

I think this ring would be great for handling magic items without being affected by them. Safe way to put something sketchy looking in a sack for later study.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Doesn't the ring remove the magic though? That seems to be how OP's cannonball gun would work. Otherwise they'd shrink back down after passing through the field.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 weeks ago

I had to look this up: you are correct. The RAW on this is pretty clear: It's a suppression field alright, and not a cancellation effect.

So, it's probably more useful for wielding a cursed weapon or handling magical traps. It would also be great at disguising magic items from detection under pretty specific circumstances. All-in-all, just the thing a thief or rogue would want in their toolbag.

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