"Both"
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It's real if you don't have enough, but pretend if you have too much.
Almost everything is pretend though, unless we're talking about the basic laws of science (and even those change with context).
Language is "pretend". Words don't mean anything unless we all agree they mean something.
Valuing family is "pretend". We all agree to give family importance, but plenty of animals don't.
All laws are pretend. Country borders are pretend. Gender roles are pretend. Social position is pretend. Even my job is only my job because everyone agrees to give me responsibility in this role. Pretty much everything in society only works because of tacit agreement.
Not everything is "pretend" but what you have identified is that all societal rules are participatory algorithms, and that includes money and laws. Money, or really wealth and value, are effectively resource allocation and prioritization algorithms. It's why the very idea of individuals, or even organizational entities largely decouple from societal benefit, having comparable allocative power to actual societal management structures is batshit absurd.
You should check out the book Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind. Humans have this amazing ability to make up all sorts of crazy shit, but it has huge advantages in our ability to organize.
One on one, a chimp would easily beat up a human. Ten on ten, the chimps still have an advantage. But 200 on 200, humans would win no contest. Our ability to make shit up allows us to coordinate with huge numbers people that we don't even know, which is extraordinarily rare.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
What differentiates humans from all animals including apes is our ability to cooperate & coordinate. Cooperation is what has allowed humans to dominate the world. I'm quite optimistic about the future simply because our innate sense of cooperation is all the good we have ever needed to conquer any and all evil the world has managed to create at any point in history all the way to now, and will continue to hold true forever.
We're also surprisingly resilient compared to many other species. We can recover from wounds that would be lethal for other animals in weeks or months - such as broken or even lost limbs. We grow scar tissue at a pretty rapid pace as well, allowing us to heal wounds quickly. And our pain tolerance is high enough that other animals would drop dead of shock from some of these things. We invented surgery at least 200 years before painkillers, and things that we consider minor surgery would outright kill other animals. Hell, we were punching holes in our skulls to "let the bad light out" in the Neolithic era. Our mouths grow too many teeth, so we rip them out and graft metal onto the rest to force them to grow in alignment.
Our endurance is so high that the only other species that can keep up with us is dogs, and even then, they can only sort of keep up. We used to have a hunting strategy where we'd follow an animal at a walking pace for hours on end, never letting them rest, until they eventually couldn't run anymore or simply dropped dead from exhaustion. We have a pretty wide range of temperatures and climates that we can survive in thanks to our ability to sweat off heat and shiver to burn extra calories for warmth. We can go 3 days without any food or water, and a full week with only water to sustain us.
There was a great sci-fi short story somebody wrote once about how humans were some of the most beloved crew members for spaceships because while we may not be the strongest, fastest, or most intelligent species out there, our ability to pack-bond with literally anything - including inanimate objects - and crazy endurance meant that we were the most dependable and capable species in a crisis. A human would jump into Hell itself in order to save a crewmate and simply walk it off like it was nothing afterward.
One could argue that since we are but merely very complicated, slow burning chemical reactions, that the very concept of "pretend" is pretend.
easy: Pretend.
But it becomes real if everyone pretends.
Technically aren't a lot of things just societal concepts if you think hard enough about them?
Countries, slut shaming, office hours, time zones, dress codes...
I strongly recommend Sapiens: a short story of humanity by Yuval Harari if you'd like to think about this a bit more, particulary his concept of 'myths'.
I'd guess that you'd find a summary of that chapter online without buying the whole book.
Thanks for the recommendation! I'll definitely have to check it out sometime. :D
Sort of. Theres maybe something to things that naturally exist, whether we name them or not. We didnt create beavers in the same way we did money.
Well... that's why I didn't say everything. :p
Idk, I've lectured my kids on monetary and economic policy enough that they know better than to ask that question.
The oldest is 10, but he just had to know why I dislike Trump, and you can't really get into why tariffs are bad without first explaining the fundamentals of supply and demand, as well as central banks managing monetary policy. They might not even be that far off if you ask them when the last fed rate hike was.
I wish I was joking, but I'm already in too deep with my conviction that I'll answer any question they have.
I'm in this boat with my kiddo, and like you I intend to give serious and honest answers for any questions (although occasionally I do say "I don't think you're quite ready for that topic yet", or I'll keep the details light and inform her of why).
It's been working out great, similar age to yours. She trusts me to give her real info no matter the topic (this is invaluable), she accepts when I tell her that she's probably not quite ready for XYZ, and the auxiliary benefit is that I'm forcing myself to get a bit more efficient even when I'm in --verbose
mode.
ETA: we're also careful to tell her that we expect her to make her own opinions about everything and not just accept ours. That includes things like religious beliefs and politics when she decides to engage with those topics.
My kids are too young to ask questions, but I intend to do my best to give them good thorough answers, including doing my best to find out when I don't really know the answer.
It's real as in it has physical form, but the value attributed to it is playing pretend that everyone just agrees to go along with.
Money is. Value isn't.
Value is. Money isn't
is isn't. Money Value
username checks out lol
btw i'm joking
We are all dumbass on this blessed day.
Shit, every day is blessed for me than
tfw you learned you've been blessed since birth
Amen, brother!
Yeah I chose the best username to represent who I am as a person.
nice to be clear with yourself
Damn, if only Santa clause had written a trilogy about this
I accept green pieces of paper for my not so hard work. It's real as long as we all pretend its real.
I personally suspect that the belief that money is real is problematic, psychologically.
There are all sorts of experiments that show we treat money in our minds differently from most other things.
A famous example is that many people would think nothing of taking a ten cent pen from work, but would be abhorred at the idea of taking money, even ten cents, from petty cash and just keeping it.
An experiment has shown that, if you give people the chance to cheat for money, or to cheat for tokens that can be immediately exchanged for money after the experiment, they will cheat more for tokens, despite the fact that at that point, the tokens are technically a type of money.
So, this sort of thing makes me suspect that beliefs about money also influence our ethics and our mental proclivities. So maybe people who believe money is more real are more likely to hoard it or to have gambling problems.
If I steal a cheap pen, it's because I wanted a cheap pen. There's no deeper meaning to it. I'm not going to fence it for a fifteenth of a baguette at the bakery.
If I steal ten cents though, I break a much deeper taboo because money is by definition fungible. Why do I need the money, what am I going to use it for, and why didn't I empty the cash register while I was at it? These are all worryingly open questions.
Furthermore I reject the premise that stealing 10 cents is functionally equivalent to stealing a pen worth 10 cents; if anything, the premise that these are equivalent depends on a very debatable modern consumerist idea that commodities are perfectly interchangeable for money and/or the belief in a "rational actor" that has never existed outside of economics classes. Sure that may have been be valid if I was in charge of doing a bulk purchase of pens (and even then people aren't as rational as economists would like but I digress). These economics concepts are all too theoretical to apply to individual actors in everyday life.
That pen is "worthless" to my employer (at least in my mind) and simultaneously worth a lot to me; I wouldn't part with it for 10 cents or even 1 euro because that wouldn't be worth the inconvenience of not having a pen, or simply because the idea of someone wanting to buy something I own and didn't intend to sell is offensive to me.
I do agree with the basic premise that we treat money as special, but to me that's a natural and rational consequence of its fungible and abstract nature. It's much weirder to consider physical objects to be fungible IMO (even if it makes sense on an abstract level for commodities), and that's why the sentence "you'll own nothing and be happy" induces so much existential dread despite being based on theoretically sound economic principles. I don't care if it's actually cheaper or more resource efficient, I'm not buying a subscription to my woodworking tools or selling my house. I like the psychological safety of owning things.
If we agree that something is real then it's real. Proof is in the reward for agreeing and the punishment for disagreeing.
Yes.