Berlin criminalizes slogan 'From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free' : germany

[–] [email protected] 21 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

The replacement of Israel with a Muslim Palestinian state would mean the abolition of the Jewish state.

Its so fucked that this is the dichotomy presented. Like "oh you want the Apartheid oppressing Muslims to end? That means you want Apartheid where the Muslims are the oppressors!".

The fact that people mean "No Apartheid" when they talk about freedom is just glossed over. As well as the Christians (both arab and settler) suffering under the laws codifying Jewish supremacy in Israel. Opposing Israel does not mean opposing Jews in general and wanting freedom for everyone in Palestine does not mean wanting freedom only for the Arab population much less only the Muslim Arab population.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (3 children)

The fact that people mean “No Apartheid” when they talk about freedom is just glossed over.

Maybe that is because this is completely delusional. Palestine has repeatedly refused any deal that would lead to freedom and piece in a world where Israel still exists. Hamas is extremely open about their goal to eradicate Israel in its entirety. Unfortunately, the reality of this conflict is that there is not enough support for a peaceful solution among the Arabic population in the middle east, least of all among Palestinians.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 9 months ago

Could you please explain what exactly the deals were that were rejected by the Palestinians?

And which “the Palestinians” rejected these deals? Which Palestinian organization could accept or reject deals? After all, Israel and its allies have never negotiated with Hamas. "You don't negotiate with terrorists!" right?

Even if it was you who supported and promoted this terrorist organization in order to deprive the competing organization of the legitimacy to speak for all of Palestine.

And finally, I would be happy if you could say a little more about why "the Palestinians" found these deals unacceptable.

Or did they really justify it by saying that destroying Israel wasn't part of the deal?

You know, I recently discovered the statements of "Breaking the silence". They taught me how to extract a never-ending stream of terrorists from a population.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Unfortunately, the reality of this conflict is that there is not enough support for a peaceful solution among the Arabic population in the middle east, least of all among Palestinians.

Odd statement considering there was (according to the latest Last Week Tonight episode) a survey shortly before the attacks that had about 3/4 of the population supporting a peaceful solution among Palestinians.

[–] [email protected] -4 points 9 months ago

A peaceful solution where they control the entire region.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

Your view on Arab people is very racist. And your arguments don't hold up considering that Israel and the west repeatedly torpedoed every democratic peoples movement, to the point where in the time leading up to the Al-Aqsa flood they only allowed cash transfers to Hamas pass the checkpoints. Freedom for Palestine is a call to end Apartheid and for a secular state.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 9 months ago (1 children)

The Arabs immediately attacked Israel when the British mandate ended, and Palestine was ruled by the PLO for nearly 30 years, which had a mandate to end Jewish existence in the area. And for the last 17 years they've been ruled by Hamas, who also wanted to eradicate the Jews.

So history has shown that Palestinians are not exactly fond of their "secular" state having Jews in it.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

That's a disgusting reversal of the facts. For anyone interested in what really happened I can recommend decolonizepalestine.com Sources are linked everywhere so you can make your own judgment on where the Palestinian narrative makes sense and where it doesn't.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 9 months ago (1 children)

It is not. The fact you call it a disgusting reversal of facts is a disgusting reversal of facts.

And decolonize Palestine is idiotic too, the Palestinian Arabs are colonizers as well.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 9 months ago (1 children)

You can find an academic account on the 1947-48 war here https://www.jstor.org/stable/2537591 .

I dont know how the arabs in palestine are to be seen as colonizers given that the notion of "palestine" came around the turn of the century but frankly I'm not interested in such mental gymnastics.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Most of the Palestinians moved to the area following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire after World War 1.

And the region has seen mass migrations of people for millenia as it has changed hands between the Ottoman Empire, the Abbasid Caliphate, the Roman Empire, the Greek Empire, the Persian Empire, the Assyrian Empire, the Babylonians, and plenty of others in between.

Everyone who lives there is a colonizer at some point in the last few hundred years.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Well thanks for sharing I suppose. Its rare to see a definition of colonialism this dumb and a lie so brazen.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 9 months ago (1 children)

The Palestinians took the lands from previous peoples. Sounds like colonization to me.

Either everyone currently in the Palestine area is a colonizer, or no one is.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago

I mean I probably shouldnt bother but here is some reading material on US colonialism in case you want to see what people actually mean by colonization (it's not immigration)

https://readsettlers.org/text-index.html

do with it what you will. There is a text at the very end comparing Zionism and US Settlerism.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 9 months ago

Tbh, the only thing that's changed is that the state prosecutor put it on a list of hate speech slogans. Nothing really changed. Hate speech was always illegal in Germany. And you can't really be surprised Pikachu face at the news that German officials are a lot more sensitive against stuff that is actively in use as a rallying frase by actual Terrorists.

But to the Article itself: I don't get the later part of this paragraph, and looks to me almost like ai generated.

The Stuttgart German-Israel Friendship Association claims to be pro-Israel, but receives its funding from the German Foreign Ministry. The lack of independence, critics argue, has turned German-Israel Friendship associations into paper tigers who won’t assertively confront their local, state and federal governments about hardcore pro-Iran and anti-Israel policies.

German-Israel Friendship associations are just that: Associations, not official agency's.

And "hardcore pro-Iran and anti-Israel policies"?????

[–] [email protected] 5 points 9 months ago (1 children)

That seems like something Germany would do.

[+] [email protected] -16 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Currently, suggesting Israel shouldn't genocide an entire population is antisemitism, so it's only natural for Germany to move as far away from that as possible.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 9 months ago (2 children)

I don't think that is the case, you just have to be very precise in your wording. And yeah, suggesting that Israel should just have to sit there and watch the missiles fly without fighting back because Hamas hides under Hospitals, I think is at least problematic. One could ask that of a third power, but not the one that's being shot at. They must have the right to shoot back to end the attacks on their people.

To the matter at hand, chanted in German streets, "from the river to the sea" sounds far too similar to "von der Maas bis an die Memel" to not carry that connotation of driving Israel out entirely.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 9 months ago (1 children)

A demonstrator with the sign "From the river to the sea, we demand equality" was also detained at a demonstration in Berlin last week.

The historic comparision cannot hold for this.

Also the historic comparision struggles with the fact, that Germany lost its territories in two wars it started as a sovereign nation. The palestinians lost their territory, as the British colonial power receeded and let Israel forcefully displace them and continue to displace them.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 9 months ago (1 children)

And that will be discussed in a court of law, in a country that is very carefully watching the freedom of opinion and repression of minorities.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 9 months ago (1 children)

in a country that is very carefully watching the freedom of opinion and repression of minorities

If you are talking about Germany then you have no idea what living in a majority-muslim neighbourhood has been like the past couple of weeks.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 9 months ago

I live in Germany, but not in any neighbourhood that you describe, so yes I cannot relate. I was however talking about our courts.

[–] [email protected] -4 points 9 months ago (2 children)

So far there has been no proof for Israels claims concerning Hamas hiding under hospitals. Actually the Doctors in those hospitals seem to disagree with that opinion.

It might just turn out to be the "chemical weapons" that Hussein was hiding in Irak. Spoiler: he didn't, but "trust me bro".

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

You mean apart from countless documented tunnel networks leading directly into hospitals, schools amd other civilian places with clear signs of militant activity in them.

It's your good right to not believe such videos coming from the Israeli army, but there's a lot of evidence supporting the Israeli claims.

I'm not even talking about all of the weapons they found. I'm talking about signs of hostages being held there, booby traps in the tunnel walls and signs of people living in these tunnels for way longer than the current open conflict.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I mean why should I believe Israeli state propaganda? They do actually need justification for what they did, so they have a strong need to proove what legalized their actions.

Also I feel like if there are tunnels below the hospital, that's kind of far away from their claim of Hamas having their central points under hospitals.

Finally, the weapons and "signs of hostages being held there", for the first part I'd say it's 50:50 of who placed them there. For the hostages I'd hope for the sake of the hostages that they were being held near Hospitals, so there's a chance of them still being alive after all the bombing.

But maybe I am delusional, I admit that seing all those deaths in the past weeks made me loose all sympathy that was left for the state of Israel.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago

"for the first part I'd say it's 50:50 of who placed them there" totally agree. That's exactly why I left them out of the equation.

"that they were being held ear Hospitals" but that's exactly the point, isn't it? If there were hostages there, then that's undeniable proof that there were Hamas terrorists there. No matter, why they were kept there, this remains an undeniable consequence.

All that aside, I too hate all of the bloodshed that is happening to the people of Palestine. Even though, I also understand why Israel was forced to do what they are doing now. No matter, who did what in the past, there simply is no conceivable timeline in which the events of the past weeks would have played out any differently and I bet that's exactly what Hamas was counting on. They need the people to hate Israel so they can keep their power and they don't care how many Israelis and Palestinians get killed in the process.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago

That's not natural it's distinctly artificial.