this post was submitted on 19 Oct 2024
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While some contractors dismiss the plan as political rhetoric, many say they can’t afford to lose more people from an aging, immigrant-dependent workforce still short of nearly 400,000 people.

Both presidential candidates promise to build more homes. One promises to deport hundreds of thousands of people who build them.

Former President Donald Trump's pledge to "launch the largest deportation operation in the history of our country" would hamstring construction firms already facing labor shortages and push record home prices higher, say industry leaders, contractors and economists.

"It would be detrimental to the construction industry and our labor supply and exacerbate our housing affordability problems," said Jim Tobin, CEO of the National Association of Home Builders. The trade group considers foreign-born workers, regardless of legal status, "a vital and flexible source of labor" to builders, estimating they fill 30% of trade jobs like carpentry, plastering, masonry and electrical roles.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

The idea has also drawn skepticism on logistical grounds, with some analysts saying its costs would be “astronomical.”

This is like being skeptical that Nazi Germany would send people to death camps because it would be too expensive.

Bryan Dunn, an-Arizona based senior vice president at Big-D Construction, a major Southwest firm, called “the idea that they could actually move that many people” out of the country “almost laughable.”

Societies have been able to move millions of people around since they developed railway systems.

What's almost laughable is the state of denial people are in.

Last year, the state’s Republican governor, Ron DeSantis, enacted a series of restrictions and penalties to deter the employment of undocumented workers. Many immigrant workers hastily left the state even before the policies took effect, with social media videos showing some construction sites sitting empty.

This is the best case scenario in theory. Immigrants would flee to safety before the US government could harm them. However, in practice, where can they go? Many people already come here because their home countries are too dangerous for them.

This gets to a broader point. I've seen a lot of discussion in the past about trying to flee the country if things go wrong. There isn't going to be anywhere to flee to that's any safer if the US becomes a christo-fascist dictatorship. The EU is going to have to fend for itself against Russia. Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan will be on their own. Unrest in North America, South America, Africa and Asia will only get worse. We are seeing a global rise of fascism along with dictatorships becoming bolder and more willing to challenge the international order. Anyway we slice it, the only good outcomes involve fascists staying out of power.

[–] Corkyskog 1 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

People simply don't care. The amount of times people talk about fleeing the country vs even changing their local government is completely out of whack. People don't try, expect to move somewhere else and not try and not have their problems follow them.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

People simply don’t care. The amount of times people talk about fleeing the country vs even changing their local government is completely out of whack. People don’t try,

People have an instinctual flight or fight response to danger. And it's rational for an individual to consider flight in the face of the most powerful military in the world. Discussions about safety are important. Most discussions I've seen qualify the need to flee based on Trump taking power. Most of the people who participate in them are explicit in their intentions to vote for Kamala and the Democratic Party in general.

I for one would like to see more discussion about changing governments. However the issue is less a lack of caring or lack of trying.

expect to move somewhere else and not try and not have their problems follow them.

It's more as this gets to, a lack of perspective. People are thinking in terms of their own self-interest. Specifically themselves and the people they care about in their immediate social spheres. This is human behavior in a nut shell. People are not considering the broader context, in part because we've never had fascism at a global scale before. Even in WWII there were limits to the reach of fascist nation states, some continents saw little to no direct conflict at home.

What we are seeing now is unprecedented in history. If the US becomes a christo-fascist dictatorship we are going to see the world completely divided into sphere's of influence. Dictatorships will become completely unchecked as the US switches from maintaining the world order to expanding it's sphere of influence in the western hemisphere. A war with Mexico is not out of the question in this scenario. Neither is Canada falling to it's own far right.

The rise of the far-right isn't unique to the US, it's been happening in India with Modi, Milei in Argentina, and in the Philippines with Bongbong Marcos. The far right is taking power and entrenching themselves all over the world. Modi and friends in India are buying news outlets to keep them toeing the party line and spewing propaganda. But unless a person is a political news junkie they can easily miss all of this broader context. People aren't being informed about the global rise of fascism, so they aren't discussing strategies that reflect that.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago) (1 children)

But again the rise of the far right is a reaction to the many flaws of how liberalism was done, that alienated citizens of the own countries in the case for lower costs. A discussion about dealing with the far right necessitates a discussion of slowing down the export of work/import of labor and promoting internal jobs.

I also blame Business Schools for not showing independent thought and propagating Jack Welch creative accounting shit

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 hours ago

We need to abandon fascism, neoliberalism, capitalism, and minority rule democracy. What we need is social democracy and we need it in every country, because it is currently the best system we have. We can have a global economy, but the rules we play by can't allow some groups to exploit others or fail to redistribute wealth when there are economic winners.

I also blame Business Schools for not showing independent thought and propagating Jack Welch creative accounting shit

Scanning his wiki page he seems awful.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Welch

Welch's practices and legacy were criticized as ultimately self-destructive and a bad influence on corporate America by author David Gelles in his 2022 book The Man Who Broke Capitalism: How Jack Welch Gutted the Heartland and Crushed the Soul of Corporate America―and How to Undo His Legacy.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 7 hours ago

And then the response from the democratic candidate ends up being "Harris vows to deport Trump. Builders say it would increase their crews and drive down home costs."

[–] [email protected] 26 points 13 hours ago (2 children)

The ONY REASON why immigrant labour is needed is because too much of the profits flow to the Parasite Class at the top.

It used to be that America could build affordable family homes for decent-sized families using well-paid American citizens. This was possible because those Americans were actually paid well enough to afford homes of their own; most of the value of their labour actually came back to them. Plus, most building materials weren’t beset by Greedflation and the need to keep obscene amounts of wealth flowing into pockets that were already overstuffed without more wealth than the person could spend in 100 lifetimes.

America could return to that time, where even the lowest-paid workers make enough to be within a stone’s throw of affording their own home. All it takes is a political leader willing to do the politically painful job of taxing the fuck out of the Parasite Class - including treating any loans taken out using stocks as collateral as “income” to be taxed, regardless of the destination of those funds.

That, plus a metric arseload of other things such as making corporate ownership of homes illegal and making “investor ownership” of homes beyond about 3-5 homes similarly illegal. Because not only do these parasites suck up the supply of homes, preventing renters from getting off the rental market, but they are also the primary players jacking up rents to unaffordable levels, seeking to squeeze every possible dollar out of hard-working Americans. Let these parasites find a real job if they want to continue earning money.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 10 hours ago

All it takes is a political leader willing to do the politically painful job of taxing the fuck out of the Parasite Class

I don't think it works that way.

I'm not trying to say that would be a bad thing, it would be great. I think, though, that what really has to happen is strong unions fighting for their fair share.

For as long as people are looking to elect "the leaders" to fix things, things are going to stay unfixed. As soon as they take for themselves the political and economic power, within structures of power that are not political parties, they can have a real seat at the table, instead of finally finding someone else to send on a voyage to the great white father to come back to them with the right caliber of benefits secured.

It's been happening, the last few years. It's grand. And obviously, not having political leaders who want to return us to the days of feudalism or Nazi Germany as enforced with terrifying modern technology would be a nice boost to being able to get that done. But I think it has to come from unions and citizen activism in order to really come true in the right way. That's how it happened back when things really were okay in the country.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago)

That's a problem across all types of business.

If you are cutting wages or laying off people, there is less overall ability to pay for things. You're basically cutting your customers ability to pay.

Even if your employees aren't your target market, they probably buy stuff from the people who are your customers.

 

This psychotic race to the bottom among business owners is just shooting yourself in the foot with extra steps.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 10 hours ago

I'll be so glad when this election is over and he can just lose the rest of his criminal cases and get sentenced, or have his final Big Mac Attack and dodge justice forever.

[–] [email protected] 35 points 15 hours ago (3 children)

This is proof they don't understand the endgame here. The only (legal) type of slavery left in the United States is prisoner labour. It is not a coincidence that the right wants to make so many things criminal. It's also not a coincidence they want to keep poor people desperate because it makes them more likely to commit crime. It's not a coincidence they support minimum sentences.

More crime, more free labour, more for profit prisons selling services.....

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 hour ago

Wow, that is pretty dark. If you take that to its logical conclusion, you could even turn parking fines into a slave sentence.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

This is exactly what I've been thinking lately. And on top of already existing laws, make new ones that criminalize currently normal things. Hell, the South enacted new laws after slavery ended and only applied them against Black Americans. Why stop there, why not increase penalties for certain crimes from misdemeanors to felonies and make 3 felony convictions mean a life sentence?

The only part I disagree with is the for profit prisons part. 8% of prisoners are in private prisons which is 8% too many, but 92% are in publicly funded and operated prisons. And those publicly operated prisons sell the services of their trapped slave labor for so many more things than stamping license plates or road work. Not only do they fight fires and clean up after natural disasters, they also make kit (armor, helmets) for the armed forces, they pick crops, they manufacture white goods (washing machines, refrigerators)(I can't find a link specifically mentioning appliances and I'll update this it I find one), and so much more. Shoot, some cities' budgets would be blown up if not for the availability of publicly held prison slaves.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago)

8% now. 20 years ago, it was a third of that. If there is profit to be made, profit will be made. It's also just one small factor in an extremely shitty whole.

The fact prison labour exists at all is an issue. If prisoners truly benefited from it, like a fair wage plus every day reducing their sentence, then I could hold my nose, but as is. Slavery.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 13 hours ago

Translation: Builders would rather go broke than pay anyone a living wage.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 14 hours ago

Almost all trump related policies will drive up costs for the consumer. He's only worried about lining the pockets of his rich friends, not making daily life for the average family more affordable

[–] [email protected] 13 points 16 hours ago

during the 2016 election cycle, the national association of home builders pac gave $361,500 to democrat campaigns and $1,820,000 to republicans (83.4%).

for the current election (reported so far), they are even more unbalanced at 85.9% republican.

^source

remind me again, mr tobin, which political party wants to deport your 'vital' workers?

[–] [email protected] 13 points 16 hours ago (2 children)

Pretty much.

I walked by a construction site when I lived in California, I heard everyone speaking Spanish.

I walk by a construction site now that I live in Indiana and I hear... everyone speaking Spanish.

I'm guessing that at least some of them aren't citizens.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 15 hours ago* (last edited 15 hours ago) (1 children)

Anytime you come across someone shitting on immigration ask them who built their house.

I've been saying this for years, the American dream is subsidized by cheap labor from South of the border. Without them we would be doing far worse

Not to mention illegal immigrants are half as likely to commit crime as American citizens

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 hours ago (1 children)

Not to mention illegal immigrants are half as likely to commit crime as American citizens

It's like Umberto said in The Ranch: "We live in fear everyday. 5 miles over the speed limit and it could ruin our life"

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[–] rc__buggy 3 points 11 hours ago

Don't need to be a citizen to pass eVerify. I'm working with six natural born citizens, one naturalized citizen, three green card holders, three work visa holders and a "dreamer"

[–] [email protected] 25 points 19 hours ago (3 children)

Why not pay builders a fair wage then?

It's certainly not labour costs driving up house prices.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 17 hours ago (15 children)

Not always about the wage. You could pay 200k per year and still have trouble finding people willing to climb up on a roof day in and day out.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

Especially if they find out that roofer is the fourth-most dangerous job in the U.S.

https://www.ishn.com/articles/112748-top-25-most-dangerous-jobs-in-the-united-states

Incidentally, police officer is ranked at 22. Well below garbage collectors (5), delivery drivers (7), or agricultural workers (11).

[–] [email protected] 7 points 15 hours ago (2 children)

delivery drivers (7)

I shudder at the thought of driving for work. It's already so hard to keep up spatial awareness of the crazy drivers for an hour or less. I cannot imagine 8 hours of that.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

And on top of all of that, you usually have to provide your own vehicle. Which means you basically drive it to death much earlier than the average lifespan of the car. If we're talking something like Uber Eats, they don't even cover your gas.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 13 hours ago (2 children)

I cannot imagine it be a worthwhile investment. The only people I know who do Uber are retired and do it out of boredom. Fortunately, I don't know a single soul who does it for a job (without having another job to do as well).

[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

I know I guy who does Door Dash. He says it let's him be his own boss where he can work as much or as little as he wants to. And he said he got tired of dealing with the new generation of workers at his old job.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

If it works for you, that's great. But it's like @[email protected] said, there's so many cons to work for Uber.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago) (1 children)

That's what an actual Door Dash driver has told me, and I would think he would be aware of the downsides of the business. He has told me his war stories and despite all of the cons he thinks it is better for him then working in his old job sector. It seems pretty telling. edit: typos

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

I see. It could be easier for your friend to work with clients over other coworkers. There's nothing wrong with that.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago)

What's surprising about it is that two attributes outweighs all of the upsides of being a full-time employee and the downsides of an enshittified business model that makes you pay for your own gas. It speaks to how important and valuable work-life balance and coworker interactions are. edit: typo

Companies should seek to provide at least the first and higher wages. I'm not sure what companies can do about generational differences, maybe different shifts, but that seems like it wouldn't be feasible in every case. Maybe more training. He made it sound like an attitude problem though. =/

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 hours ago

I don't know anyone lately, but I know plenty of people who did it when they were younger. Including a trandgender friend who did it for maybe 20 years. I'm guessing she doesn't have a lot of job opportunities here in Indiana. She's such an awesome person too.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 15 hours ago (1 children)
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[–] [email protected] 6 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

99% of people just don’t want to do the work it’s not a matter of wage and most of the time you get twice the worker when you hire Mexicans just speaking from experience

[–] zalgotext 10 points 14 hours ago (3 children)

I guarantee you more people would find themselves wanting to do the work if it paid more.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 15 hours ago

We should be building apartments, stop building unscalable housing

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