this post was submitted on 11 Apr 2024
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[–] [email protected] 46 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (5 children)

People really should familiarize themselves with the Nazi party's rise to power. Hitler and his party spent over a decade campaigning on making Germany great again by restoring the status quo of an earlier time. They were going to get rid of all the failed liberal/marxist/socialist policies that made the country weak. They would protect the traditional family unit. They would change immigration policies to get you your job back. They would stop sending money to foreign countries when it should be spent in Germany.

As the years went on, political disagreements in the German government led to a standstill while the economy declined. While the people's quality of life decreased, politicians squabbled instead of passing bills. Hitler and his party argued a rule by decree would bypass the bureaucracy. They knew what needed to be done, and it was those pesky leftists in government that prevented it from happening!

The Nazis would get their way. Hitler would be appointed dictator and Germans were happy he could finally deliver on his promises. Anyone who said otherwise would be killed as an enemy of the people. Oh yeah! They were going to kill people. Did they not mention that before? Whoopsies!

[–] [email protected] 20 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

And maybe also familiarize themselves with the story of Ossietzky. For 6 years, he, Tucholsky and other authors tore the - then slowly rising - Nazi party a new one every week in their magazine. They found them part threatening, part hilarious, certainly completely unable to govern.
Well, the Nazis did eventually rise to power; Tucholsky had seen the writing on the wall and had gotten out of Germany, urging Ossietzky to do the same. He refused, was soon taken into custody and tortured. Arguably, at this point in time, this sort of blatant Nazi terror was still considered despicable. To lend him visibility and get him out of internment, an unprecedented campaign to award him the Nobel Peace Prize was started - and succeeded in 1936, the year of the Summer Olympics in Berlin. Alas, it was too late; he died after receiving it, still in custody.
(EDIT: in hindsight) Hitler's reaction was entirely predictable: He barred any German from accepting a Nobel Prize ever again.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 8 months ago (1 children)

People really should familiarize themselves with the Nazi party’s rise to power.

On the one hand, I think there's an impulse to take deep dives into every Beer Hall Putsch and Reichstag Fire, in an effort to glean patterns of fascism that were particular to that time and place. If you're waiting for the next big western dictator to have a tiny mustache and a vegan diet, it seems like you're fixating more on the ascetics of history than the material conditions. The end result is looking for Weird Dudes In Politics and asserting their particular brand of dressing, acting, or talking strangely is a hallmark of their fascist politics. And if you're not weird enough, you're not a Real Fascist. Trump's a fascist but Nicki Hailey is fine, because Trump's a big wet dude and Hailey is comparatively normal.

On the other, I see a very knee-jerk impulse to credit anything vaguely popular or broadly appealing as "creeping fascism". That quickly gets us to "BLM is Fascism!" and "YouTube Moderators are Fascism!" and "Everyone I Don't Like Is Hitler!" I've seen more than a few conservative Op-Eds asserting that DSA is Fascist because they're a form of National Socialism. I've both Ukraine and Russia denounced as Fascist, both Hamas and Israel denounced as Fascist, both Cuba and America denounced as Fascist, both California and Texas, etc, etc... and it quickly seems to boil down to "Anyone with a police/military doing something I don't like is Fascism".

While the people’s quality of life decreased, politicians squabbled instead of passing bills. Hitler and his party argued a rule by decree would bypass the bureaucracy. They knew what needed to be done, and it was those pesky leftists in government that prevented it from happening!

Okay, but this is something I see from every political angle. Whether its Democrats saying we need to "Mint the Coin" to override obstruction on the Debt Ceiling and "Pack the Court" to undo the conservative majority on the bench or its a Texas/Florida governor asserting state sovereignty to push through school privatization or a new round of border enforcement, the desire to bully past political bottlenecks created by the opposition is a tale as old as Two-Party Politics.

Also, not particularly unusual for people to use the term "Communist" when describing any opposition movement, whether its Trumpian Russo-philes or Biden-esque SJWs.

To quote a particular manifesto

Where is the party in opposition that has not been decried as communistic by its opponents in power? Where is the opposition that has not hurled back the branding reproach of communism, against the more advanced opposition parties, as well as against its reactionary adversaries?

So this isn't unique to fascism, unless we want to describe American politics as grossly fascist from end to end.

Anyone who said otherwise would be killed as an enemy of the people. Oh yeah! They were going to kill people. Did they not mention that before? Whoopsies!

That is, again, the end game of any government with sufficient will-to-power. When push comes to shove, the prevailing state government enforces its dictates through violence. And, again, this country is rife with state violence. It wasn't as though the Weimer Government was above killing people. Hell, its not as though the current German government is above killing people.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I think it's great everyone is under the microscope when it comes to authoritarian rule. You're right that the eccentric get targeted more than the corporate straitlaced ones. Packing the court with loyal judges is bad no matter who is doing it, nor for what reason. The fact that this is seen as the only way to fix problems is a problem in itself. It absolutely should be called out. The growing trend of not being allowed to criticize liberal politicians because it helps conservative politicians is terrible. All politicians should be criticized.

I strongly disagree all governments will kill if they're given unlimited power. They might cause death by mismanagement, but it's a special kind of government that actively executes people. Still though, no government should have unlimited power. The people in charge change. There is no guarantee a benevolent dictator will be succeeded by someone who is benevolent, but only by someone who is a dictator. Governments should be productive, but centralizing power has never lead to great outcomes in the long term. I do think the US government is becoming increasingly centralized in the name of eliminating roadblocks. Executive orders and Supreme court rulings are becoming the favourite way of changing laws and that's a dangerous precedent.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Packing the court with loyal judges is bad no matter who is doing it

[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Well this is a bit ironic coming from someone who thinks that all governments with "sufficient will-to-power" will move onto murdering political opponents

[–] [email protected] 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

all governments with “sufficient will-to-power” will move onto murdering political opponents

Name one that hasn't.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago

Well, that'd depend on what exactly you mean with "will-to-power"

[–] [email protected] 8 points 8 months ago

As the years went on, political disagreements in the German government led to a standstill while the economy declined. While the people’s quality of life decreased, politicians squabbled instead of passing bills. Hitler and his party argued a rule by decree would bypass the bureaucracy. They knew what needed to be done, and it was those pesky leftists in government that prevented it from happening!

This is exactly also what Pierre Poillievre is promising with "Common sense politics". all why being obstructionist to the government and stopping action for the last 10 years.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago

I'm confused, why did you replace GOP with Nazis, Trump with Hitler, and US with Germany? Other than that, yeah you described exactly what we're dealing with right now.

(It's a "joke") :(

[–] [email protected] 42 points 8 months ago (3 children)

Looking at the US right now, I think Mr. Rosen misjudged that last part.

[–] [email protected] 37 points 8 months ago (2 children)

Honestly it really does seem like he was way too optimistic about how fucking horrible conservatives are, and how much of their ideology is simply about being able to hurt others for no other reason than enjoyment.

It's getting pretty bad everywhere; in Finland we have multiple literal neo-Nazis in the current government, for example.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)

You missed the point. Fascism doesn't arrive looking like Nazis. But it eventually starts to look like them. The German people during WWII weren't unaware of the mass transport and concentration camps. They knew, but by that time they were either conditioned to support it or feel unable to do anything to stop it.

Rosen's quote, then. Must not be interpreted as in, fascism just arrived to the US proposing these horrible things. As most of the world will tell you, fascism installed in the US as early as the XIX century. The Nazis took cues from the US actions to create their extermination programs. It's just that the US hadn't started their full metamorphosis in full until the 80's. It was always focused against particular groups of individuals or specific outsiders, and was very slow with their own people unless they belong to a marginalized community. It's just now that they openly promote the atrocities, but they have been doing them for two centuries. But most people were blind to them, because fascism arrives as your friend.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 8 months ago

You missed the point.

I can read you know. I didn't miss the point, I disagreed with it

[–] [email protected] 12 points 8 months ago

fascism installed in the US as early as the XIX century.

There's some debate over the history of fascism but fascism was not "installed" in the US in the 19th century; it was barely even making inroads in Europe, its birthplace.

The Nazis took cues from the US actions to create their extermination programs. It’s just that the US hadn’t started their full metamorphosis in full until the 80’s

Yes, but that doesn't mean that the US was fascist. The US genocide of indigenous peoples was not a fascist project, it was a colonial one. You seem to be of the opinion that committing atrocities is fascist and fascism is committing atrocities, which is understandable given that fascism inevitably leads to brutality. But for example, I'd hardly call FDR a fascist, but he put Asian Americans in concentration camps and (while knowing about the holocaust) refused entry to Jewish refugees. Likewise, Japan looked to US for inspiration for its expansionism, but Japan wasn't fascist: it was imperial.

I do think Rosen is mistaken, or at least this quote is misleading on this part. The Nazis were talking about exterminating Jews before they got into power. But they were also focusing hard on the "friendly" points and downplaying the uglier ones whenever dealing with moderate audiences.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Yup. here too in Canada.

The leader of the opposition, and several of his party members were found cohorting and publicly hanging out with neo-nazi's and insurrectionists.

They then paraded their only token Jewish MP in the party to get up in parliament and claim that the CPC can't be nazi's / racist since She's a Jew. (Meanwhile, I'm from her community, and her community HATES her for being a violence spewing anti-nonjew asshole, who has been encouraging Jewish parents to arm themselves against the islam/palestinian threats to their children in Canada). the fact that a Jewish person seems perfectly ok to ignore and lie about her own party members meeting with NeoNazi's should tell you that for her, it's about power and she's willing to use our heritage for that power.

Seriously: Look up MP Melissa Lantsman history. She's one of the most Vile human beings I've sadly met.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 8 months ago (2 children)

Yeah: the (increasingly non-moderate) Republican base eats that up - they want to hurt people.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Yep, same here in Finland too.

Moderate conservatives don't really exist anymore, if they ever did. Seems like reich-wingers have just been waiting for an excuse to go full fash

[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 months ago (1 children)

They're called liberals now in the USA. And many aren't moderate.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 8 months ago

Yeah, the Centre Party here has been hemorrhaging voters to a right wing extremist party that has several actual neo-Nazis in it

[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago

And the CPC in Canada is licking their chops and trying to copy them

[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Maybe, and I for certain people I totally agree. But I also think certain media outlets work really hard to make sure their audience is afraid of nearly everything. Because of that, these folks are in constant fight-or-flight mode and ready to kick, punch, or shove anything and everything that makes them feel slightly uncomfortable.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 8 months ago

I totally agree, but that’s not freedom of speech. Accredited news outlets are required by law to provide the truth. They can be sanctioned, or charged with libel or slander.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

Fascism arrives as your friend (if you're an ignorant asshole)

[–] [email protected] 12 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Certainly no shortage of those

[–] [email protected] 7 points 8 months ago (1 children)

A near-endless supply, unfortunately.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 months ago

Human stupidity, the gift that keeps on taking

[–] [email protected] 13 points 8 months ago

Be wary of any politician who tells you they can cure all your problems.

They can't and they won't. They're just saying what you want to hear to gain power.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Beware of censorship as well. Empower your government to silence your enemies, and it won’t be long before they silence you too.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 8 months ago (25 children)

On the other hand let your 'enemies' talk without consequences and then you'll have Murdoch media everywhere.

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[–] Gooey0210 4 points 8 months ago

Make you feel proud...

[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

It love bombs you and tells you that the problems are all going to get better if we go back to how things used to be

[–] [email protected] 1 points 8 months ago

"Things will get better, we just have to get rid of those pesky foreigners and left-wingers who ruined this country"

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