this post was submitted on 09 Nov 2023
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His win is a direct result of the Supreme Court's decision in a pivotal LGBTQ+ rights case.

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[–] [email protected] 151 points 9 months ago (4 children)

As one of the LGBT, I’m fine with this. I want the ability to refuse work to the Religious and Republicans—and I have done so for decades. The difference is, I don’t tell them why. I just say I’m busy. Because even though I want them to burn in a fiery hell, I’m not an asshole.

[–] [email protected] 69 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (8 children)

While religion is a protected class, political orientation is not protected. It is perfectly legal (and moral) to ask someone if they are conservative before agreeing to do work for them.

You can even cite a policy to really drive it home: "I do not conduct business with racists, bigots, misogynists, homophobes, xenophobes, fascists or any other type of conservatives."

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[–] [email protected] 25 points 9 months ago (21 children)

Cool but where do you draw the line? If a taxi driver refuses to drive you is it still fine? What if a teacher refuses to teach your children? Or if a doctor refuses to treat you?

[–] [email protected] 11 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I don't know what the person you're replying to does for work, but I feel like what their work is really makes a big difference. Teachers don't (or shouldn't) teach kids any differently based on orientation, political ideology, etc., other than perhaps excusing them from work that goes against their beliefs (for example celebrating a holiday they take objection to). The teacher isn't required to "go against their beliefs" and do something they disagree with, only to keep their mouth shut about any disagreements they may have with a student's lifestyle. A teacher should not be able to refuse to teach anyone because they are not being asked to do a special job catering to any particular student. If they disagree with the curriculum, I would guess they just shouldn't be a teacher then (as in, if you're a high school science teacher you may be required to teach evolution).

Similarly with a doctor, they should not be able to say "I refuse to treat you because you're gay/religious/political." Everyone gets the same medical care. The only exception I can think of is transgender medical care, but if they don't want to do that they can just not go into that field.

Anything that involves creating is a little different. A wedding photographer would be more actively participating in a gay wedding. Or a Christian wedding, etc. If they feel really uncomfortable with that, they shouldn't have to. That doesn't change my opinion that they're closed-minded and bigoted, and it doesn't mean people can't leave them bad reviews stating as much. Plus, these services are not basic rights, whereas healthcare and education are basic rights.

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[–] [email protected] 78 points 9 months ago (15 children)

I disagree with him, and I think he's bigoted. But I don't think anyone has the right to his labor and that he should be legally forced to photograph things that he doesn't want to photograph. And it's not like photography is a business that anyone can corner the market of in a small town or anything like that, all you need is a camera. It's the most common side hustle I see people try.

[–] [email protected] 46 points 9 months ago (11 children)

And how do you differentiate between this and say, a shop, or a doctor? Do LGBT people not "have the right to the labour" of those services?

I disagree with that framing entirely. But I'm curious to know how you would differentiate.

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[–] [email protected] 18 points 9 months ago (2 children)

To say that anyone can be a photographer belittles the skill associated with a professional photographer. That's akin to saying that you can hire anyone with a voice to be a singer. Sure, you can, but there's a qualitative difference.

That aside, would there be any sign that the photographer could put on their door that would be illegal? No Blacks, No Jews, No Women, etc… If not, play that to the logical extreme; What if all photographers in town had the same sign? What services are appropriate to deny in entirety to a specific class of people.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

This potentially opened the floodgates for discrimination. Unless this is specifically only for for “hired” or “contract” If not…. Coming soon to stores in the south near you

“NO F****TS ALLOWED”

“TRA***ES NOT WELCOME”

[–] [email protected] 10 points 9 months ago (4 children)

I don't think he has the right to make his business known publicly if it isn't available to the public-- all of it.

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[–] Mandy 66 points 9 months ago (3 children)

Why are headlines about American Christians always the exact opposite of what the Bible wants them to be?

What happened to love thy neighbour and shit

[–] [email protected] 21 points 9 months ago (4 children)

Selective religion to suit their needs. Oldest trick in the literal book.

Jesus was white BTW

/s in case it wasn't abundantly clear

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 9 months ago

As someone who grew up in a very religious household, I can tell you without a doubt in my mind, the worst people I ever met were the church crowd. Everyone was so nice to each other inside the building but as soon as the service was over, people showed their real colors in the parking lot.

You'd get parents screaming at their kids for "misbehaving" during the boring ass sermon, cars bolting out of their parking spaces with no disregard for other people walking, cars battling each other to try and get out of the lot before the other guy.. You know.. Cause football was starting soon.

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[–] [email protected] 46 points 9 months ago (4 children)

Nobody seems to be asking the main question: why would LGBT+ couples want to hire an open homophobe to take their wedding pictures to begin with?

[–] [email protected] 47 points 9 months ago (8 children)

I feel like framing the issue like this kinda dangerous. If a single entity (in this case, a business) is allowed to discriminate against a protected class, then are all businesses that provide that service allowed to discriminate against said class?

It seems as though they would be. That gets us back to a version of the Jim Crow South pretty quickly. How are LGBTQ+ folks supposed to exist as equal members in a society if entire segments of that society are legally allowed to close themselves off? What happens when a business that controls major segments of more important service sectors makes a similar decision (for example, say the only Level 1 trauma center in a city is in a privately-owned, religiously-affiliated medical center that now has a legal precedent to say they won't serve LGBTQ+ patients for religious reasons)?

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[–] [email protected] 29 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Same reason black people wanted to eat at the whites only lunch counters.

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 9 months ago

In 303 Creative v. Elenis the answer is: the couple was manufactured. No LGBT+ couple tried to hire them. The man named in court docs who supposedly tried to hire 303 Creative first heard about the case when reporters contacted him shortly before the Supreme Court released their decision. He has been happily married (to a woman) for a long time, and had no need for a wedding website.

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[–] [email protected] 40 points 9 months ago (4 children)

Does this in return mean that LGBTQ+ couples win the right to discriminate against christian photographers?

[–] [email protected] 10 points 9 months ago (1 children)

It would also likely mean that LGBTQ+ photographers won the right to discriminate against christians.

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[–] [email protected] 30 points 9 months ago (10 children)

i am kind of torn on this.

on the one hand I think it's important that you can refuse to work with people you don't like for whatever reason.

On the other hand, this is an absolutely childish and stupid reason to not work with someone.

[–] [email protected] 27 points 9 months ago (3 children)

You can refuse for any reason - except those involving discrimination against a protected class. Sexual orientation is supposed to be a protected class. You can still discriminate, you just have to give another/no reason and make sure it doesn't look like you're doing it for a prohibited reason.

If I wanted to say that no people with glasses were allowed to shop in my store, that would be allowed. If I wanted to say that no pregnant women could shop in my store, that wouldn't be allowed. If it was a pregnant woman wearing glasses, I could claim the first reason, but then, if I was found to be allowing other people with glasses to shop, my reasoning would be challenged and I would have to demonstrate that I wasn't discriminating because of pregnancy.

At least, this is how discrimination laws are supposed to work.

It turns out that anti-discrimination laws in the US are actually very weak and not fully defined, allowing bullshit like this to seep out of judge's mouths and through the cracks. The Equal Protections Clause of the 14th Amendment only grants equality under law, so it only really affects governments. The Civil Rights Act extends this out to private employment under Title VII, but not much further.

What the 303 Creative v. Elenis ruling (the Supreme Court ruling that led to the settlement here) does, in theory, is allow any private person the right to discriminate against any protected class (eg pregnancy, disability, and all the others) so long as the person they're discriminating against isn't an employee. This is clearly bullshit, and I'm sure if people started discriminating against Christians they'd be up in arms.

Thankfully, this settlement does not in any way strengthen this ruling, it only gives one asshole permission by one state - there is no ruling here, just an out of court settlement, thus it does not extend to anyone else. In particular, the state probably thought that because there was no injured party actually being discriminated against there wasn't much point wasting time and money litigating.

Obligatory IANAL.

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[–] [email protected] 28 points 9 months ago

More work for the intelligent ones that don't discriminate.

[–] ElBarto 21 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Waiting for the first Christian couple to be denied the photographers services, to lose their shit about it! It happened when that bakerdid it and it will happen here.

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[–] [email protected] 17 points 9 months ago (11 children)

There was an article on Slate a few years ago that I wish I could find again. It was a fictional story about what it was like for a lesbian, with a kid and a wife, going through a day in which businesses were allowed to refuse her service. It's a slippery slope, guys.

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 9 months ago

We've always had bigots. We always will. In the past, bigoted business behavior has resulted in opportunity for those who are willing to serve the clients the bigots won't. Minorities understand this, and minority-friendly businesses prospered.

I can understand being upset that a business won't accept you as a customer. What I don't understand is why anyone would still insist on supporting that offensive business with their patronage. I'd be spreading the word about their practices, asking folks to boycott them.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (3 children)

Show me someone saying "This is fine", and I'll show you someone who has the privilege to not fear whether they're going to be blocked out of society for the crime of...existing. This is only the first step to "All businesses, including businesses required for life, can discriminate against LGBTQ+ individuals". Y'all are unhinged.

Obligatory:

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (15 children)

How is his policy/service any different from a whites only lunch counter?

[–] [email protected] 11 points 9 months ago
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