this post was submitted on 05 Nov 2023
493 points (95.9% liked)

Greentext

3770 readers
1404 users here now

This is a place to share greentexts and witness the confounding life of Anon. If you're new to the Greentext community, think of it as a sort of zoo with Anon as the main attraction.

Be warned:

If you find yourself getting angry (or god forbid, agreeing) with something Anon has said, you might be doing it wrong.

founded 10 months ago
MODERATORS
 
top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 144 points 9 months ago (3 children)

I think the humans, elves, and dwarves were not only weaker/less armed/less trained at the time of the movies vs the initial fight, but also less united/allied

[–] [email protected] 95 points 9 months ago (1 children)

This. The war that culminated in Saurons initial defeat was literally called the "War of the last alliance".

[–] [email protected] 28 points 9 months ago (1 children)

What a shit name for a war tbh. "Yo guys this was fun, but this is the last time we're getting together" - elves probably. Or maybe they meant last as in "previous", but that's just asking for it to get outdated.

[–] [email protected] 44 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Wars can be renamed after the fact.

Or else everyone fighting in World War 1 would have had a lot less chill after the war ended.

"Wait, we have to do this again??" - traumatised veteran probably

[–] [email protected] 11 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Well in that case it makes sense to instantiate an array, but they really should've called it World War 0

[–] vaultdweller013 5 points 9 months ago (1 children)

No that was the 7 years war/French Indian war.

[–] ryathal 2 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I'd say ww0 would be the Napoleonic wars

[–] vaultdweller013 2 points 9 months ago

7 years war/French Indian war is the alpha version

Napoleonic ears is the beta version

[–] [email protected] 7 points 9 months ago

The war to end wars.. If only it turned out that way.

[–] [email protected] 29 points 9 months ago

Furthermore, you had the business with Saruman possessing Theoden, and Sauron manipulating Denethor into thinking it was hopeless etc

[–] [email protected] 17 points 9 months ago (5 children)

Is it realistic though to not have any advancement in technology or warfare in 5000 years? How could they be weaker than before? That sounds insane

[–] [email protected] 63 points 9 months ago (3 children)

Middle Earth's magic is in decay by the third age. The elves are literally leaving it, and there are way less of them. Men also only live to ~80 instead of living for hundreds of years like they did in Numenor. Middle Earth eventually becomes a world like ours.

[–] [email protected] 40 points 9 months ago (2 children)

a world like ours.

I find it absolutely hilarious picturing Frodo trying to place an Amazon order, or getting kicked out of his hobbit hole because of inflation.

[–] [email protected] 37 points 9 months ago

Goddamnit they gentrified the Shire

[–] [email protected] 21 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

iirc Frodo sold Bag End to the Sackville-Bagginses for a not great price and (fake) moves to a sketchier neighborhood where you had to lock your doors lol.

So Frodo being priced out of his childhood home isn’t far off.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 9 months ago

To be fair that was because he wasn't sure he was coming back from his journey, not because he couldn't have gotten a good deal if he haggled. He also got it back for free after Saruman was killed, so pretty good deal in the end anyways.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 9 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 10 points 9 months ago

Furthermore men were no longer as "pure" in the 2nd/3rd age legends. The numenorians initially lived hundreds of years, were stonger had a more advanced civ. Etc. It all crumbled and then even those that survived and rebuilt mixed with humans that resulted in shorter lifespans, etc. By the movies it was basically the dark ages.

[–] Tar_alcaran 2 points 9 months ago

Decay and waning are the major themes of Tolkien's Legendarium. Magic runs out, great creations cannot be repeated, there is no progress and effort once spent cannot be regained.

[–] [email protected] 46 points 9 months ago

No, not really. The trope is called "medieval stasis" (in TVT terms anyway) and is fairly common in high fantasy, though. The setting is supposed to be swords and horses, with notes of "technology bad" - which makes sense because what passes for tech in Middle Earth is mostly Saruman fucking around with orcs and that sort of thing.

As for weakening, a lot of that had to do with other things than just technological stagnation.

[–] [email protected] 27 points 9 months ago (5 children)

The war was so hard on elves that the entire race was in decline, and most of them had already fled Middle Earth for Valinor by the time of the movies. At least 2 of the greatest dwarven cities were destroyed...1 by a dragon and one by a Balrog. Humanity was divided, and the greatest human city had been without a legitimate ruler for centuries. On top of all that, the most powerful wizard, who should have been a bulwark against Saurons return, was a double-agent and had likely been undermining the other races for decades or longer. Middle Earth was basically the remains of the Roman Empire during the Dark Ages

[–] Tar_alcaran 2 points 9 months ago

The war was so hard on elves that the entire race was in decline

That's the whole thing for the elves, and really the entire LOTR saga. Everything declines, fades, weakens and runs down. But the elves especially never "grow" or improve.

load more comments (4 replies)
[–] [email protected] 21 points 9 months ago

There was some advancement in technology: Saruman invented bombs.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Especially considering how long some of the races live. Imagine how specialized in a specific field of science an elf could be when it can study a subject for hundreds of years.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 9 months ago

Man literally described Feanor

[–] notamechanic321 94 points 9 months ago (1 children)

What OP is suggesting: Give sauron the ring, it went well last time. We reckon we could take him

[–] [email protected] 8 points 9 months ago

🤣🤣🤣 thanks for the laugh

[–] [email protected] 80 points 9 months ago (2 children)
[–] [email protected] 58 points 9 months ago

Yeah, even in the movie a LOT of people get seriously wrecked before that finger gets cut off.

[–] Varyk 16 points 9 months ago (3 children)

Was his finger cut off in the book too? Is that how he lost the ring?

[–] [email protected] 33 points 9 months ago (2 children)

I never finished the Silmarillion, but from a synopsis I read, he was defeated first, then the ring was cut from his hand.

[–] [email protected] 51 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (2 children)

Yeah, aside from the numerous armies lost, includijg dwarves and elves, ~1000 years of fighting, it took two literal kings dying to defeat him, Gil-galad and Elendil. But, Sauron was also defated. In the end, Isildur showed up and chopped off his finger and took the ring.

[–] [email protected] 36 points 9 months ago

"gg2ez" - Isildur

[–] [email protected] 18 points 9 months ago

Gil-Galad and Elendil both being Big Fuckin Deals btw, particularly Gil-Galad.

Keeping in mind that a lot of First Age/Second Age stuff is less a matter of crude physicality and more about spiritual strength.

[–] Varyk 4 points 9 months ago

Okay, thanks

[–] [email protected] 9 points 9 months ago

I’ve only read the first book, but I don’t actually recall them mentioning explicitly that his finger got cut off in the way the movies did it

[–] Tar_alcaran 4 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

Yes, but the rest is very different.

The last alliance spend years preparing and forging elven weapons for the human/elf army, then they marched south along the Anduin and kicked major ass in the Battle of Dagorlad. The elves almost ruined it, because the sindarin didn't want to listen to the Noldorin Gil-galad, so they charged and got their faces punched in in the Dead Marshes (well, that's what they called em after the battle anyway). A WHOLE lot more named characters died.

The Last Alliance breached the black gate, "simply" marched into Mordor, and starting laying siege to Barad-dur for seven whole years. Anarion, son of Elendil and brother of Isildur, gets crushed under a rock at some point. Sauron eventually comes out and fights Gil-Galad. Elendil, Cirdan and Elrond join in and they fight Sauron at full power. Sauron turns in Gil-galad into a pointy-eared torch and smashes Elendil to bits. But Sauron is fought down too, and only THEN does Isildur cut off the ring, banishing his spirit once again. Isildur basically kills him while he's down, not in the middle of the fight and definitely not in the middle of the battle of Dagorlad. There is also no dramatic scene at Mount Doom in the books, but both Elrond and Cirdan have a talk with Isildur about destroying the ring. Isildur takes it as payment for the death of his brother and father, and dies just two years later.

So the war of the last alliance killed the elven kings of Greenwood and Lothlorion (meaning Thranduil becomes king). Elendil, king of the Dunedain, dies and is succeeded by Isildur. There is no more king of Noldor, since Gil-galad didn't have kids.

[–] Varyk 2 points 9 months ago

Okay, thanks for this, so it would have been very difficult to cut off his finger unless he had already been subdued, a lucky swipe in the middle of the battle wouldn't have done it?

[–] [email protected] 51 points 9 months ago

He kills lotr superman in the process so no, not so easy.

[–] [email protected] 49 points 9 months ago (1 children)

It wasnt ezpz. It cost countless lives and for almost all races to unite agains Sauron.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 9 months ago (1 children)

You know it's serious when they pause racism to beat your ass together.

[–] maccentric 4 points 9 months ago

A comma would go a long way between ass and together.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 9 months ago (1 children)

it's sort of interesting to hear things from Gollum's point of view

[–] [email protected] 35 points 9 months ago (2 children)

This Idea literally killed a Game studio.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Wow, i didn't even know Daedalic shut down. What a shame, i really liked their old point and click games...

[–] [email protected] 9 points 9 months ago

They stoped making games and now they are just publishing as far as I know

[–] [email protected] 6 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

good, that idea should kill a studio.. it's an amazingly stupid idea..

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago

Sauron: You miss one parry input and now everyone thinks you're a joke.

load more comments
view more: next ›