this post was submitted on 31 Aug 2023
588 points (82.3% liked)

World News

31906 readers
446 users here now

News from around the world!

Rules:

founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS
 

German energy giant RWE has begun dismantling a wind farm to make way for a further expansion of an open-pit lignite coal mine in the western region of North Rhine Westphalia.

I thought renewables were cheaper than coal. How is this possible?

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 187 points 11 months ago (6 children)

I think this headline is misleading.

A better headline might read: “Coal found beneath wind farm. Turbines dismantled to make room for mining operation.”

[–] [email protected] 115 points 11 months ago (1 children)

i don't think that's any better

[–] [email protected] 40 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (4 children)

I originally read it as “Germany says ‘Fuck wind as an alternative energy source’ and begins reverting back to coal”, so I figured I’d clarify in case anyone end thought the same thing.

Doesn’t seem like this article indicates that Germans is giving up on alternative energy.

Edit: corrected dumb spelling mistake.

[–] [email protected] 78 points 11 months ago (1 children)

No but it does clearly show prioritization when the 2 conflict, which is the point of contention (as well as using coal at all, if you give a shit about our planetary environment)

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (3 replies)
[–] [email protected] 52 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Still, its lignite, they should cease all mining operations.

[–] [email protected] 32 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Lignite is the worst coal, most polluting and least energy dense afaik, why would you bother mining it

load more comments (3 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (4 replies)
[–] [email protected] 140 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Delete this InfoWars-level bs misinformation meant to smear clean energy.

One small privately owned wind farm is being disassembled, this is not a general new policy or anything signalling a shift away from clean energy.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 115 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (20 children)

Ban straws! (even though disabled people need them and they create negligible pollution)

Replace your car with an electric one! (even though it still works fine and will end up in landfill, never mind the environmental cost of producing the new one, or the source of the electricity it uses)

Reduce your carbon footprint! (even though its a term we invented ourselves to shift responsibility to you, while we fly our private jets around creating more pollution than you ever could in 10 lifetimes)

Recycle! (even though 90% of it ends up in landfill anyway because we don't want to pay to actually recycle it)

All equates to

Look the other way while we continue to rape the planet and blame it on you!!!

Never forget - capitalists (and the governments they're co-dependent on) only want more money, they don't car about you or me or the planet, only about themsleves and the numbers in their accounts, and they will never willingly stop doing whatever it takes to make more.

[–] [email protected] 64 points 11 months ago (9 children)

or the source of the electricity it uses

Oh, quit this noise. In the same countries where electric cars are becoming common, wind/water/sun-produced energy is also on the rise. Electric cars decouple the energy used from the means of production in ways that gasoline will never have, and the potential outweighs the temporary conditions of power generation in socially backward areas like Darfur and America.

load more comments (9 replies)
[–] [email protected] 48 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (11 children)

While I partly agree with your argument at the end of your comment, I think your examples are really unfitting.

Only single-use plastic straws are banned. There is also an exemption for straws that are necessary for medical reasons. The needs of disabled people are included in the exemption. https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2021-003536-ASW_EN.html

If people buy a new car, the old one (if still functional) typically enters the second-hand market, not the landfill. There is no reason why this would be different if the new car is an electric vehicle.

The carbon footprint is a perfectly fine concept on its own, the problem is just that some people shit on it with their private jets, which are a legitimate concern. Some people also argue that "most of the pollution is done by corporations, not individuals", completely ignoring the fact that these corporations only do it while producing goods for the people. That does not mean that we can just blame the people for it, but everybody has the responsibility to vote for policies that keep the corporations in check.

Recycling is really bad in some countries, but works pretty well in others. For example in Germany 56% of plastic waste is recycled, 44% burned. 90% of paper is recycled. https://www.quarks.de/umwelt/muell/das-solltest-du-ueber-recycling-wissen/#l%C3%B6sung4

load more comments (11 replies)
load more comments (18 replies)
[–] [email protected] 93 points 11 months ago (13 children)

I live next to this coal mine and the wind farm is on my monthly Autobahn trip right next to me. Maybe to shed some light on the "why":

The coal mine was scheduled to be mined until 2038. The plan was to extend the mine to the west, the wind farm is to the east of the coal mine. RWE of course has big investments into mining this lignite until the very last possible day. There are problems with extending to the west though: old towns still exist there and the residents would of course love to stay in their homes the family had for generations. To the east, where the wind farm is, there is nothing but fields and some wind turbines. There are about 150 turbines in the wind farm and ~15 of them are standing where the mine is extending to now. Those 15 also were the first to be built for the wind farm and they are nearly at the end of their lifespan, some of them are even deemed structurally unsafe.

Of course it would be better to stop mining the lignite but decades ago the contracts with RWE were made and just forcing a company out of a contract that is worth billions of Euros is extremely bad precedent and would hinder future investions. Buying out the contract to cease mining faster also was not possible, because RWE was unwilling to settle for a reasonable sum of money.

[–] [email protected] 27 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

What a beautiful society where companies have more powers than an state...

Ofc theses companies have our futurs in mind, right ?

Capitalism.

[–] [email protected] 27 points 11 months ago (1 children)

They don't have more power - the government was just stupid to give them contracts this longlasting

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (12 replies)
[–] [email protected] 79 points 11 months ago (6 children)

So, if I'm reading this correctly, this is the Konigshovener Hohe wind farm which is built on the site of the Garzweiler open-pit lignite mine. According to this article, the site was inaugurated in 2015 with 21 Senvion turbines.

The problem is, Senvion went out of business in 2019, and customers have been struggling to support their turbines. Apparently the Senvion design is exceptionally dependent on software access. Siemens and others have stepped in to offer support contracts to Senvion turbines in good working order, but with the opportunity to mine more lignite at the site, maybe RWE felt that it was time to spin down the Senvion turbines.

It seems like there may be many factors in this decision.

load more comments (6 replies)
[–] [email protected] 61 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (4 children)

I thought renewables were cheaper than coal. How is this possible?

Renewables are cheaper than coal.

What you've misunderstood about capitalism is it's not the thing that is cheapest that gets investment. The investment goes to the thing that gives you the highest ROI, return on investment.

If it produces a better ROI per square meter, it gets the investment.

The problem is capitalism.

load more comments (4 replies)
[–] [email protected] 56 points 11 months ago (4 children)

Germany is basically what happens when an entire country embraces greenwashing as its ideology.

load more comments (4 replies)
[–] [email protected] 55 points 11 months ago (1 children)

That's an old wind farm that would be due being taken down. Wind turbines have a finite life span, they oscillate slightly and this loosens the ground around the base, so after around 30 years they're taken down. Typically they end up being sold to poorer countries where they're installed on a new base.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 51 points 11 months ago (6 children)

It's about density. Renewables Are great, but not on terms of value add per square foot. The coal under the wind mill is worth orders of magnitude more than the windmill.

And, it's not as bad as it sounds. In general, the number of windmills keeps increasing.

[–] [email protected] 28 points 11 months ago (9 children)

If you care about energy density, nuclear is the best solution, not coal. I guess Germans don't care though

load more comments (9 replies)
load more comments (5 replies)
[–] [email protected] 50 points 11 months ago (17 children)

Germany's green energy push was secretly propped up by outsourcing fossil fuel needs to Russian natural gas. The war in Ukraine and America subsequently blowing up the Nordstream 2 pipeline means Germany will need to find new alternatives to feeding their energy needs. One could hope this results in a speed up of green tech development as it becomes more of a pressing necessity than just, you know, the right thing to do. And hey speaking of knowing the right thing to do and then not doing it because of the perverse economic incentives for ignoring it, it's funny to note that the global leader in green tech is China but due to this new cold war the US is brewing and due to Germany's newly-humbled-into role as Jr Junior partner to the US there's no way there will be the necessary cooperation there between national tech sectors

load more comments (17 replies)
[–] [email protected] 40 points 11 months ago (47 children)

Maybe they should support more ukkkraine pigmask-off nazis, sanctions against other fuel resources and further terrorist attacks against peaceful infrastructure by their so called amerikkka "allies".

load more comments (47 replies)
[–] [email protected] 40 points 11 months ago

Just shows how green capitalism is just a waste of time. You'd think a country as geographically small and vulnerable as Germany would take this into account but guess not.

[–] [email protected] 38 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (14 children)

Didn't the green party in Germany have power in government right now? And weren't they the same guys who dismantled their nuclear plants?

I'm not very informed on German politics but if the answer to both was yes they should really rename their green party to the coal party.

load more comments (14 replies)
[–] [email protected] 31 points 11 months ago

Naturally, they will inevitably pin the blame on China so :germany-cool: can build more coal guilt-free

[–] [email protected] 31 points 11 months ago (3 children)

The tile is dangerously misleading. OP, please...

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] [email protected] 30 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I thought renewables were cheaper than coal. How is this possible?

The value is simply more densely packed in the coal under the wind farm than in the surface area of the wind farm.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments
view more: next ›