this post was submitted on 18 Feb 2025

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Ukraine

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The Head of NATO (lemmy.world)

submitted 4 weeks ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[–] [email protected] 105 points 4 weeks ago (2 children)

God damn it he's right.

Here's a challenge: Name one time giving concessions to Russia ended well.

[–] [email protected] 50 points 4 weeks ago

History suggests that Russia considers concession a form of unconditional surrender, after which they are free to continue doing whatever they want regardless of what agreements they signed.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 4 weeks ago

You can win a war against russia and they still won't honour any treaties. Never trust a prostitutes tears, thiefs honour and russian peomises. A proverb from russias neighbour

[–] [email protected] 73 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Of course. the current leader of the USA is a putin stooge. trump is, too

[–] [email protected] 65 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

I am ashamed to be American.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 4 weeks ago

That comment reduces the shame by a tiny bit.

Also, it is so important these days to distinguish between a country as "fucked up government" and a country as "people who just want to live their lives, have a house or apartment and maybe 0-6 kids". Same goes for Russia, China, Europe (in how it deals with refugees), MENA, ...

[–] [email protected] 42 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Zelenskyy is a bamf, idk what his domestic politics are like but he is doing everything he can in his position to win. He's clearly trolling Trump to make him look weak and Trump is so fucking stupid it might work.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 4 weeks ago

to make him look weak

Because he IS weak, confused and stupid.

[–] [email protected] 31 points 4 weeks ago (2 children)

Can Zelenskyy be my president? I like him a lot more

[–] [email protected] 9 points 4 weeks ago

Rn I think Ukraine needs him more, after that he deserves a 5 year vacation too

[–] [email protected] 6 points 4 weeks ago

Have you seen Servant of The People? It pretty much encapsulates who Zelensky was when he was elected and who he is today, molded by war that is...

[–] [email protected] 14 points 4 weeks ago

Fuck Russia!

[–] [email protected] 9 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

I heard there is a free place in the NATO after the Usa exit ;)

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Thought experiment but what nations would make up anything remotely close to American weight?

[–] [email protected] 11 points 4 weeks ago (2 children)

American strength is meaningless now, you don't know if they're with you or against you.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 weeks ago

It's worse than meaningless, it's two fistfuls of high calibre rounds thrown into a bonfire with all the countries of the world stood around it not knowing who's going to be eating lead. It's unpredictable in a lot of ways, and that's even more dangerous than just being the strongest bully around. It's an invisible axe hanging over everyone's head, even Americans....Trump wanted to bring in the army to shoot people in the knees during the pandemic civil unrests, several times only people around Trump insisting that it was illegal to do that and refusing to do it anyway prevented US Armed forces and National Guard from being deployed against the citizenry of the USA. Right now it's like playing Russian Roulette, except that the gun isn't a revolver, it's a fully automatic assault rifle with blanks loaded into an unknown number of spots in the magazine, and we're not handing it around the group to take turns, there's a demented Cheeto swinging it in a circle above his head tied to a rope and it's randomly firing.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago

Yes which is why I said. If America is gone what combination of countries not in NATO could replace their might?

[–] [email protected] 9 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

While mineral rights and new border negotiations are up to Ukraine to negotiate for themself, not the US, I think NATO membership is the one thing in these peace negotiations that they don't really get to pick. It's up to the other NATO members, including the soviet United States. Ukraine may be better off getting one-on-one mutual defense agreements with various countries.

To be clear, as a US voter I support Ukraine joining NATO the minute they have a peace treaty. But I'm not the one making the decision.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 4 weeks ago

The NATO would benefit immensely if Ukraine joined. It's really laughable that is even still used as political negotiation material.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 weeks ago (2 children)

The "Ukraine in NATO" deal was the open and communicated "line in the sand" for Putin.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

'If you try and join the group that protects from invasions, I'll invade' is not exactly a compelling position to take.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 weeks ago

I'm sure he'll be devastated to learn he got hit with such an epic 'um actually'

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 weeks ago

So you're admitting that Russia sets NATO policy?

[–] [email protected] -1 points 4 weeks ago

Putin's WHINES are only ignoramusly based since he doesn't want to look beyond his military fronts

[+] sanpedropeddler -7 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (3 children)

Only his people and his army... funded by NATO countries. I'm sorry but you can't act like you've been getting no support here. Ukraine would be a Russian puppet state right now if it weren't for foreign aid.

[–] [email protected] 42 points 4 weeks ago (2 children)

Yes, that is why he said troops and army. Other countries didn't lose any people when they provided money and equipment.

He is making a solid point, no need to undercut it.

[–] [email protected] -3 points 4 weeks ago

he said troops and army.

He said only our troops and army, when it's actually their troops and army and a boatload of financial and equipment support from NATO countries. To the point we're only talking about this because one of those countries elected a syphilitic cheeto who wants to make a deal to get something in return for continuing to fund their ongoing war, mostly because shutting off that funding serves his master, aka Putin.

[+] sanpedropeddler -19 points 4 weeks ago (2 children)

He undercuts his own point by not acknowledging the reality of the situation. It is a mistake not to mention the crucial role NATO has played in Ukraine's defense.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

They stopped the Russian advance on their own, long before any shipments of weapons arrived.

The fact they've been able to hold out this long against a numerically superior foe is indeed due to massive support from other countries. But if they hadn't held the line in the beginning, alone, there wouldn't have been anyone to support.

I won't ever look down on them. They spilled the blood and cried the tears. All we did was throw them a bunch of surplus shit we didn't need anymore, so that our MIC can sell us newer shit.

[+] sanpedropeddler -6 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

I'm not in any way trying to "look down on" Ukraine. I am criticizing a statement because I believe it wasn't an effective way to make an argument.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Yes, you are trying to look down on Ukraine by focusing so hard on material suppllies over human lives.

[–] sanpedropeddler -2 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Don't tell me what I'm trying to do. This is ridiculous. You can say it seemed like that's what I was trying to do, or that you misunderstood me. But respectfully, fuck off with that.

I know what I meant and what I said. Zelensky did not make an effective argument. That's where the conversation ends. No looking down on anyone.

I'm tired of not being able to voice even the slightest bit of a disagreement with zelensky just because his country was invaded.

Every single time people just assume I'm anti Ukraine, because they can't fathom the idea I would criticize something that I overall agree with. Its fucking ridiculous.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 weeks ago

Keep digging that hole!

[–] [email protected] 10 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

I'd say Ukraine has played a far greater role in Ukraine's defense. Not to mention that Ukraine is body-blocking Russia from NATO countries while doing so. Putin won't stop in Ukraine and they fucking know it.

[+] sanpedropeddler -8 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Regardless, Ukraine wouldn't still exist in the form it does now without NATO's support. That is a simple fact, it cannot be argued. My point has nothing to do with what Ukraine has or hasn't done, or what NATO should or should not be doing.

Literally all I have said is that Zelensky did not describe the situation well. Im not even trying to use this as an indicator of his character or intelligence as a leader. This isn't a hot take, it really doesn't deserve this much discussion.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Literally all I have said is that Zelensky did not describe the situation well.

Just to be clear then, it was a NATO country, with NATO troops that stopped Russia? Because he described it as 'Ukraine's army that stopped Russia--not a NATO country, not NATO troops, but our people and army."

He undercuts his own point by not acknowledging the reality of the situation.

The reality that... Ukrainian troops and the Ukrainian army are fighting Russia, who will immediately attack NATO countries if they beat Ukraine? If you believe Putin that they'll stop in Ukraine I have a bridge I think you'll love, $99.99. And if you think NATO doesn't know that and isn't using Ukraine as a buffer, I'll throw in a nice little island for $49.99.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 4 weeks ago

Yeah, I have the utmost respect for what Ukraine has done. They have stood firm and paid a heavy price for it. It simply wouldn't have been possible without the massive amount of funding and weapon donations though and I think they need to be diplomatically careful. It's likely that the USA is preparing to throw them under the bus so will be relying on the rest of NATO for continued support. I'm not sure diminishing their contributions (while there is internal right wing/Russian pressure) is the best strategy.

[–] fibojoly 2 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

He knows, and we know he knows.
He needs to look strong and we don't need him to lessen his position or dilute his message to assuage our pride or some shit.
Jesus, it's like you fucking gave money to their Kickstarter and are whining coz you didn't get your credit yet. Can you wait till Ukraine has won at least?

[–] sanpedropeddler 0 points 3 weeks ago

This is the leader of a country, not a professional wrestler. He doesn't need to look like anything. He needs to be careful how he negotiates, to obtain as much aid as he can. I don't think you do that by acting like you've been given nothing, when the continued existence of your nation hinges entirely on the support of NATO.