this post was submitted on 12 Aug 2023
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NonCredibleDefense

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[–] [email protected] 93 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

It's been bizarre some of my interactions with group A and B. I've been active in leftist circles for most of my time on the internet. I definitely get and agree with a lot of the criticisms with the US, NATO, and the EU, but I don't get how so many people think the Russian or Chinese government are any more righteous, especially considering the human rights violations and encroachments on sovereignty we've seen from both countries. Not just in their past either, but within the last decade!

The situation kinda feels like how Japan justified its imperialism to the outside world during the Invasion of China, South Asia, and the Pacific. Their official stance was they were aiming to rid Asia of Western imperialism and replace it with a sphere of co-prosperity, Despite this message however, they were absolutely brutal to the lands they occupied. The murdered and raped indiscriminately, and those they kept alive they enslaved and worked to death in brutal conditions. No sane person today who knows the extent of their harm would ever defend them as a power, even if their supposed message was "anti-imperialism."

You can oppose western imperialism, US hegemony, and capitalism without siding with other imperialists, fascists, and psuedo-communists. The actions of a country should speak for them, not the messages their propaganda tries to make you believe. Considering what I know from Russia's Soviet legacy with Eastern Europe, the actions they took against Chechnya and Georgia, their local treatment of dissidents, the brutal persecution of queer people that makes Florida look tame, the war crimes and human rights violations committed in Syria and Africa by Wagner, and the bombing, killing, raping, and kidnapping of civilians in Ukraine. I don't see how anyone could defend them or their actions. I know the US is guilty most of it through out its history too, but you shouldn't oppose a monster by supporting another monster.

[–] [email protected] 50 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I tried explaining this to some tankies but instead I got banned from the community before I could finish my point.

[–] [email protected] 36 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Because they only exist to push the putin agenda. They're the Jordan Peterson of the left, but I wouldn't even call them leftists. They're red fascists.

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[–] [email protected] 29 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

I posted on lemmy.ml calling out tankies as terrible human beings. Pointed out the term was coined by communists disgusted at their fellows cheering on the Soviet's brutal oppression of other communists. Said tankies don't deserve the title of "communist", because at its core the ideals of communism are equity and human dignity. Called Marx "flawed and written for a world that existed 175 years ago".

They did not like that at all.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago (6 children)

I mean, Marx never claimed to have all the answers. His whole schtick was that society was progressing to a new and fairer stage of human civilization and economic organization, not that he knew the smoothest way to get there.

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[–] [email protected] 55 points 1 year ago (11 children)

There are waaaaay too many E's on Lemmy.

[–] [email protected] 33 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

When I first opened Lemmy and saw the very first post was a leftist post complaining about Neoliberals, I knew what I was about to get myself into with this place.

[–] gammasfor 27 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (21 children)

Yeah it's the one thing putting me off the platform. Like I'd describe myself as pretty hard left, and a pacifist. But Russia is a fascist state performing an unprovoked attack on a neighbouring nation. Just because many NATO nations have right wing problems (and tbh I feel a lot of people on the left haven't heard the expression "don't make the good the enemy of the perfect" - shit is bad in the West but it's nothing compared to life in Russia) doesn't undo that fact and Ukraine has the right to defend itself and it's right that we support that.

The fact that some may consider NATO's support to be hypocritical given the middle East doesn't mean it's wrong.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago

100%, my man. Ukraine is a sovereign state defending itself from an unprovoked attack.

If my neighbour was getting attacked, I'd help them too, out of common decency, and common sense to keep the neighbourhood safe.

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[–] 5redie8 19 points 1 year ago (2 children)
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[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago

I've seen too many As myself

[–] ThrowawayPermanente 13 points 1 year ago

Also A's, B's, and D's.

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[–] [email protected] 51 points 1 year ago (25 children)

Oh look, the post is overrun by genocide apologists!

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[–] [email protected] 31 points 1 year ago (6 children)

This is a biased piece of pseudo intellectual misinformation. Communists don't defend Russia and "lefty" (couldn't you be more obvious in your bias if you tried) antifascists do not assume whole nations are fascist at all - clearly they attack fascists in their own countries without attacking everyone.

This is just dumb centrist shit masquerading as discourse.

[–] [email protected] 31 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

This post isn't about categories of leftists or communists, it's about categories of genocide apologists. Most communists do not defend Russia (I hope) but among those who defend Russia, some claim to be communist.

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[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Not all communists, geez

But some are definitely doing this. If you haven't encountered them, consider yourself lucky

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[–] [email protected] 29 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The Venn diagram of people who own > 3 guns "for home defense" yet think Ukraine should just let the invaders keep their gains is probably highly overlapped.

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[–] icepuncher69 27 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Look i cringe and ROFL as much as the next guy when some dumbass tankie comes defending tyranical goverments and calling one racist just for critcising the ccp, but this meme is idiotic, since its deffinetly made targeting those dumbasses and made with the intend to roundup both us vs them just to generate fighting, and is kinda indulging in what it bashes, not that theres anything possitive to take away from tankies and its not like we are gonna change their mind if we repeatedly scream to them tianamen square massacre, but rounding up people just to shittalk those idiots is very suspisous and i cant stop but feeling that whe are being manipulated.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

This may seem a tangent, but bear with me. You make an interesting point. Your view should be considered.

You look deeper into the mentality us vs them behind this meme. You identify that as a possible strategy to keep people apart. That is something worthwhile considering.

Now, problem is your post is hard to parse. You have what amounts to a whole paragraph with only one period. My suggestion: break information into small chunks. That greatly helps your readers. It allows them to become more engaged with your content.

Now, leaving that aside. Thanks for trying to reason through this shallow us-them mentality.

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[–] [email protected] 26 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (30 children)

EDIT: for those downvoting me, I would be happy to engage in a civil discussion about why you think I’m wrong, and even change my mind if I’m mistaken.

This is extremely dumb for a number of reasons, not least of which is that it’s very clearly written with a certain bias.

A (the communist) is describing a tankie. But generally someone who identifies specifically as a communist is not authoritarian, they’re closer to anarchocommunism than the reverse.

B (the lefty antifascist) describes them as a subtype of A, but antifascists are diametrically opposed to tankies, ideologically. Also, “antifascist” is a word that has long been used to label a specific group of leftists… calling them “lefty antifascists” implies that there are also “right-wing antifascists,” trying to equivocate the sides by generalizing the word. Also, most importantly, the description is 100% bullshit.

C (the hard right) a single token addition of a very generic “hard” right person, to appear balanced. No making fun of this person like in the rest of the descriptions, just a list of facts… except “always an arsehole” which I would argue most of these people would enjoy reading about themselves because they would think it was funny and kind of true. Clearly the target audience.

D (the contrarian) this is the modern right wing lowest common denominator person, and an accurate description of the archetype, but no mention of left/right in this description. Wonder why?

E (the peacenik) what? Peacenik is just another historically left-wing-associated label. These people do not have a unified view of how to end the conflict, and certainly don’t frequently suggest ceding land to an invader. That’s a really stupid take on pacifism, and it’s just another dig at the left.

This is definitely dumb and probably just plain old propaganda.

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[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 year ago

holodomor denial vs. holocaust denial

[–] [email protected] 23 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

NAFO is a Nazi propaganda op. Literally. The founder, Kamil Dyszewski (aka Kama Kamelia) is a Holocaust denier who adores Hitler. I call this the SS type genocide denier. That's actually the most common type.

In case anyone thinks the rest of NAFO distanced themselves from this guy: Lol no, he was just on stage at the NAFO summit in Vilnius.

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[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)
  • Trump in the US about Putin:

"I'd say that's pretty smart. He's taking over a country -- really avast, vast location, a great piece of land with a lot of people, and just walking right in." "Putin declares a big portion of the Ukraine -- of Ukraine. Putin declares it as independent. Oh, that's wonderful."

So Donald J. Trump i type C. ? Hard right? I would say Trump is not "hard" right, he is the leader of the right wing in general of all conservatives. He represents their interest best. And all conservatives in Europe think the same way as Trump:

  • Afd in Germany:

Kotré describes Ukraine as a US staging ground to destabilize Russia, adding: "And when we talk about that, we also have to talk about the bioweapons laboratories that are aimed at Russia.

He seems to be Category E, but I say he is also C.

  • Le Pen in France: Of meeting the Russian president in 2017, she replied: “The Vladimir Putin of five years ago is not exactly that of today, ... okay war in Georgia in 2008 was not the same? She wants to find a european solution and does not want the US to help Ukraine, basically corruptly Pro Russia behind the scenes like Trump.

People do not seem to realize how hard the right wing is betting on the destruction of Ukraine. They can use the same to eradicate the "social democrats" in their own countries as Putin did with Navalny. Use it to justify Authoritarianism at home.

[–] wieli99 23 points 1 year ago (2 children)

As a European, I consider Trump hard right, as I do the AFD aswell. Just because it's become more mainstream doesn't mean it's no longer hard imo

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[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago (2 children)

There are also many People that identify with the names of group a,b,c that oppose Russia. There are for example Antifa Groups fighting against Russia. If I would guess the percentage of People that identify with the names of group a,b,c that oppose Russia could be roughly as follows: A 75% B 95% C 35% Just numbers I made up.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago

I don't think the labels are meant to be all-encompassing - all of the categories have significant amounts of Ukrainian supporters. Most self-identified antifa, I would say, would be Ukrainian supporters, as would most self-identified communists who aren't tankies. It's more "Genocide apologist + [A,B,C,D,E] most likely means this".

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Antifascists don't think that. OP is too cool for any of these groups being mocked, I'm sure.

[–] [email protected] 26 points 1 year ago (14 children)

I'd consider myself antifascist.

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[–] ImFresh3x 15 points 1 year ago

Fake “Communist” losers

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago

F - The Hungarian fascist:

Subtype of the C type. Likes the fact, that Russia is genociding Ukrainians, and calling the Ukrainian people a "Leninist fabrication". The Hungarian far-right has a similar feeling toward Slovaks, often calling them "Hungarians forced to learn Slavic", their country "fake" and "illegitimate", and wish they could also do a special military operation on them.

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