this post was submitted on 19 Sep 2024
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[–] [email protected] 21 points 5 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago) (2 children)

While this does get pushed it's important to realize they're pushing it to take in people who feel rejected by liberals and leftists. That's why when there's a question that appears honest it's important to treat it in good faith before assuming they're a conservative troll.

There are people who spend their entire childhood hearing garbage like "black people are more disposed to criminality, because 50% of the prison population is black but only 20% of society is Black." And they just haven't ever been exposed to concepts like over policing. When you just react aggressively right away it can actually push them back into that ideology and then it's really more a matter of the people around them. Humans need community. If political or religious truths are required for membership then they will adopt them.

And yes these same rules apply to someone who grew up hearing the US is an imperialist bully state. This is why diversity in school, the workplace, church, and wherever people congregate is so damn important. We need to see that we aren't devils, that we all want the same thing. (A peaceful existence with enough distractions and the ability to provide for our family)

That's also why extremist ideologues are so hell bent on isolating people. Home schooling, as many church events as possible, sun down towns, church approved summer camp, members only clubs, intolerance of tolerance, etc.

[–] zarkanian 2 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

Agreed, although I think that "home schooling" should be bolded and italicized.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

Hey, I was homeschooled and turned out okay! ...My mom also has a bachelor of science and is, in general, a woman of science, though...so...maybe a little different for my case.

[–] zarkanian 1 points 1 hour ago

There isn't just the education aspect. There's also the social aspect.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago)

And yes these same rules apply to someone who grew up hearing the US is an imperialist bully state.

I didn't grow up hearing that, but I mean...

I see your point, and I hope I succeed in assuming people are interacting in good faith until shown otherwise most of the time, but at a certain point people also need to be responsible for questioning the narratives they have always accepted without having to be stroked and petted into doing so. (They are both the "party of personal responsibility" and also the "fuck your feelings" party, after all.)

I grew up surrounded by rah rah USA#1 jingoism and a continuous dose of cold war propaganda in almost every bit of media I consumed. (It was the 70s/80s after all) And now I know that the US is an imperialist bully state with a lot of things in its past that folks like to try wishing out of existence rather than willingly examining.

I didn't change a bunch of my opinions because the people I used to disagree with about many (not all) of these and related topics were nice to me about it. The things that have changed have changed because I was willing to consider new information.

[–] [email protected] 64 points 13 hours ago (5 children)

I've learned recently that the skinhead movement used to be antiracist and leftist af. Until nazis infiltrated the skinhead punk scene.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 5 hours ago

Nazis ruin everything. And we let them.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 5 hours ago

Nazi punks, FUCK OFF!

[–] [email protected] 47 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

Nazis have a rich history of stealing symbols and coopting movements. They're like hateful little magpies who steal any shiny bits of culture they find and take them back to their nests to shit all over them.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 6 hours ago (2 children)

For an example see the symbol of peace that was the swastika more than 100 years ago

[–] Soulg 2 points 5 hours ago

They reversed the direction. The original symbol is still used in Asia

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 9 hours ago* (last edited 9 hours ago)
[–] [email protected] 29 points 11 hours ago

Antiracist and leftist is kind of an exaggeration; rather an apolitical subculture of the British working class up until the late 70s/early 80s when the National Front infiltrated the scene. This was during the second wave of the skinhead movement, the original skinheads in the 60s were influenced by West Indian immigrants to the UK, and listened mainly to ska and jamaican music, but generally not very politically conscious or involved. Kind of a rougher offshoot of the mod subculture.

The second wave of skinheads came out of the punk movement. A lot of skins were into Oi!/streetpunk and the NF made their own version which was then called RAC (Rock against communism) but is better known these days (at least in Europe) as White Power Music.

I'm not saying there weren't leftist skinheads (Redskins and Angelic Upstarts would be a good place to start) but as a subculture, the common theme is rather working class identity and pride - which unfortunately, as we've seen, can be exploited by fascist movements as well.

[–] [email protected] 68 points 14 hours ago (3 children)

"I WAS going to vote against fascism, but now you've FORCED me to vote for fascism!"

[–] [email protected] 12 points 5 hours ago

"And in a way, that makes YOU the fascist!"

Continues becoming even more fascist

[–] jballs 19 points 7 hours ago (2 children)

I had a conversation with my conservative neighbor who legitimately made this argument. He was saying that it's the left's fault for telling all these young conservative men that they're Nazis, which makes those poor impressionable young men go "well if you're going to call me a fascist then I'm going to fascist even harder just to spite you."

[–] [email protected] 4 points 4 hours ago (3 children)

It does, though. It doesn't have to make sense to you, but it's natural for people to say "who welcomes me? Who attacks me?" And go with those who welcome them. Is it simplistic? Sure. But either you learn how to take on the educational and emotional burden of reaching out, or you have extra enemies.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

Important caveat: telling a person their ideology is hateful isn't "an attack," and letting them continue to wallow in ignorance is more unkind than enlightening them.

That they feel attacked is another issue. We still have to deal with the consequences of this, and should be cognizant of it, but at the end of the day let us not lose the plot and start conflating their sensitivity with offensive language as if they weren't two very different things.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 hours ago

Indeed. The raw fact of how people tend to work doesn't make it right. It's just that hating on them for it is ineffectual.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago) (1 children)

but it’s natural for people to say “who welcomes me? Who attacks me?” And go with those who welcome them.

The people in my life who are wearing the red hats are essentially always the ones attacking, despite making up a tiny fraction of the people in my social sphere. The rest of us just spend every family gathering or social event hoping they won't start spouting off this time, and offering zero of our own opinions because we know they absolutely will start spouting off if we do. They have a chilling effect on topics that anyone can discuss, compared to what we can discuss when they are not there.

So yeah, IME they are the oppressors from Trump all the way down.

My maga neighbor across the street has no idea if I'd welcome him or not, because his yard is full of hand lettered signs letting me know in no uncertain terms that anyone who votes like I do is a moron/traitor, etc. So I just pretend he doesn't exist, and hope he and his (continuous stream of) visiting buddies don't blow up the neighborhood or get careless with their guns one day.

The one and only sign he does have in spanish is the one letting everyone know he's got a surveillance system though. That's probably not racist though...

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 hours ago

Totally get that. I'm not at saying they're not going to socially attack you. I'm just saying that ridicule in return is ineffectual.

But so is being overly soft.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 hours ago

This is true, but it's also incredibly dumb. Like teens that choose to hang out with local drug gangs and throw their future away. You can see why it happens, but it's so wasteful and stupid, and always ends in misery.

What we are ultimately talking about is the depth of stupidity that people are capable of.

Before the flathearthers, Tea Party, Q-anon and the MAGA movements, we simply did not account for just how fucking dumb the average person can be under bad circumstances.

This is the essence of Trump's rise to power. His political advisors called this "an opportunity" and tripled down on it. They believed that a bad-faith movement could build a coalition of the mentally unstable, susceptible morons, cultish religion indoctrinated, under-educated and socially fringed. Easily swept up with Nazi-style messaging and politics.

The solution: At an individual level, if you know someone you seek to save, work to expose them to real information by being a positive and understanding presence in their lives, and slowly showing them the way out of the prison of stupidity inside their own heads.

At a global level, we must exact hard costs on their movement as a whole and each participant as people. We must make it highly expensive and damaging to support fascism. They are already paying the price of being marginalized socially, but costs need to be much higher.

This cost is the reason Trump has not been able to inspire his moron minions to violence in the last couple years. They see that MAGA minions get imprisoned, their lives ruined, and possibly shot in the head, and they simply don't turn up for Trump's calls to violence anymore. The public cost of participation in fascism works as a deterrent, so we need to crank up the costs significantly higher.

If they think they are going to double down on fascism because you called them out, then you must triple down on exacting a price for their bullshit. At some point they'll realize it's not worth it. Just like all these MAGA men on dating apps now pretending to be apolitical because they can't get any women to take them seriously. Suddenly, the pride in their shitty convictions is out the window when they realize they won't be allowed to participate in society. Keep making them pay the price of choosing poorly. The harder you hit them, the faster you help them do some much needed introspection.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 6 hours ago

"I used to hold very strong leftist values and principles up until someone on the internet hurt my feelings."

[–] [email protected] 3 points 8 hours ago

Pygmalian Effect?

[–] [email protected] 53 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

They get angry because even when they try to mask their racism it still clearly shows.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 hours ago

Happy Cakeday! 🍰🎂

[–] [email protected] 23 points 14 hours ago

Poor conservatives. Always getting picked on by all those mean normies.

[–] [email protected] 36 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

Here people often self report with "I'm not racist....but"

[–] [email protected] 3 points 7 hours ago

Proceeds to spout incredibly offensive and uneducated xenophobic take revealing they've never had a personal relationship with a person of color or other marginalized group

[–] ShareMySims 17 points 14 hours ago

Always be projecting. It's the only thing they know.

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