ok, what is snap and why should I care?
this post was submitted on 16 Sep 2024
751 points (98.3% liked)
linuxmemes
20707 readers
268 users here now
I use Arch btw
Sister communities:
- LemmyMemes: Memes
- LemmyShitpost: Anything and everything goes.
- RISA: Star Trek memes and shitposts
Community rules
- Follow the site-wide rules and code of conduct
- Be civil
- Post Linux-related content
- No recent reposts
Please report posts and comments that break these rules!
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
One of my friends spent like a month distrohopping just to find a debian-based distro that fits these two criteria:
-
First-class support for KDE
-
Isn't broken all the time
Ubuntu fails both. KDE Neon excels on the first one, but fails harder than ubuntu on the second one. Kubuntu as well. Debian has horridly outdated packages, and he refuses to use nix/flatpak. Tuxedo OS is obscure and broken. Mint is great, but installing KDE takes some effort.
He finally settled on Ubuntu Server with the native KDE package. Still has to do some weird incantations to banish snap tho.
How did things get this bad?
How did Pop!_OS fare?
You are about to do something potentially harmful.
To continue type in the phrase 'Yes, do as I say!'
But speaking seriously, I think he tried it for a while and didn't like it either... not sure why specifically tho, I'll ask him
When I used Mint, it felt like packages are outdated just like on Debian (based on Ubuntu LTS + needs time to rebase onto a new one).
This is why I use Windows.
I don't have a problem with snaps as a technology. If you want to use them, then who am I to judge?
But what I do have a problem with is when I don't have a choice and I am being forced to use what the distro maintainers think is good for me. That is what finally made me quit Ubuntu and switch to Fedora.
Also, Snap is proprietary. That alone is reason enough for me to steer clear.
Well snap itself isn't proprietary, the backend server distributing the snaps is.
Explain how this distinction matters in the real world?
Snap distribution is as much a part of snaps as Snapd.
Who cares that part of it is open source if other parts aren't?
load more comments
(3 replies)
load more comments
(1 replies)
I do have a problem with them, the same problem was solved, better, with other technologies like appImage (which doesn't litter your mount list with 100 meaningless entries).
Even flatpak is better, snap is an also ran they're trying to force on us without being as good as any of the competitors.
Couldn't the same argument be made for any distro? They give you what they put in their repos. If you want a deb package, use the mozillateam PPA (which is built on Canonical's hardware, same as Mozilla's snap of it).
the difference is that the folder/package structure for other package manager is open and well known
everyone can host their own i.e. apt, pacman or Flatpak repository with little effort
the required folder/package structure for snaps is no longer open and you cannot change the default snap repository either easily
The package structure for snaps is very much open, as is the API for a snap store. There was for a long time an open source snap store implementation, but it died out due to lack of interest by others in actually hosting their own stores, which to me says a lot about whether people actually want to host their own repo or just want to use it as a way to complain.
IIRC, the issue was that - unless you take steps to explicitly prevent it - Ubuntu would occasionally reinstall the snap version. I don't remember the details, been a while since I had to dance that dance, but I recall it being one of the things that put me off snap in particular, Ubuntu in general and sparked my search for a different distro.
I'm now on Nobara, a Fedora-based gaming-oriented distro maintained by GloriousEgroll (who also maintains the popular Proton-GE)
Like with any time you're trying to select a specific source for a package, you need to set apt configuration to prefer that source. It's standard apt behaviour with a standard way to configure it.
Correct me there, but wasn't the "select source" thing intended to be about different deb sources?
The issue is that what you expect to be a deb package manager ends up redirecting to snap anyway. It's not a different source, it's a different system. If I have to manually take steps to avoid using the distro vendor's default sources because they just redirect to a system I don't want to use, I might as well look for a different vendor.
And so I did
It's literally a choice between what deb you want to get. One is a transitional package that installs a different package on the system (in this case the snap) as Debian transitional packages have done for decades, and the other is a third party package that provides the app rather than the transitional package. Just as when there was the ffmpeg vs. libav split, if you don't want the transitional package to be installed and you want your third-party package from a different repository, you have to tell apt that.
Thanks for that correction then. I wasn't conscious of that detail.
In any case, the issue remains that, if the vendor's default repositories push for a type of package I don't want, I either have to manually find and vet third party repositories I trust or find someone else to rely on for defaults I'm fine with.
The difference between "I want a different source for a single package, so I'll manually select a different source for that one" and "I don't trust Canonical to select sources I agree with anymore" is one of scale. I'm fine with manually pinning the transitional package, uninstalling it and the snap (hopefully remembering to back up my profile before realising that it also deletes user data) adding a ppa, reinstalling it and reimporting my profiles just for firefox.
But if I feel like I have to fight my distro vendor over not using their preferred package distribution system, it's probably better to jump ship - other vendors have beautiful distros too.
(Also, "you can just use a different source" is part of the reason people prefer not to use snap, where you can't do that)
If you're fighting your distro vendor over the choice of packages they're providing in their repos, then yeah, you should probably use another distro. But that's exactly what I was saying in my original comment above. If you don't like rpms or flatpaks, you shouldn't be using Fedora either, since those two packaging technologies are what Fedora uses for their distribution. For me the Linux Mint developers' hostility to snaps (which in my experience tend to be the best trade-offs for my needs) is one of the many reasons I won't use or suggest Mint.
KDE Neon provides their own packages in their repo that add Mozilla's apt repository for Firefox as well as setting up the preferences. In fact, here's the file, which gets placed in /etc/apt/preferences.d/org-kde-neon-packages-mozilla-org-pin:
# SPDX-License-Identifier: GPL-2.0-only OR GPL-3.0-only OR LicenseRef-KDE-Accepted-GPL
# SPDX-FileCopyrightText: 2022 Harald Sitter <[email protected]>
Package: firefox
Pin: release o=packages.mozilla.org
Pin-Priority: 1000
Package: firefox-*
Pin: release o=packages.mozilla.org
Pin-Priority: 1000
Package: firefox-locale-*
Pin: release o=packages.mozilla.org
Pin-Priority: 1000
The great part of KDE Neon's approach to it is that since I do want the Firefox snap on my KDE Neon laptop, I can simply run sudo apt remove neon-repositories-mozilla-firefox firefox && sudo apt update && sudo apt install firefox to get the snapped version of Firefox.
Also, snapd keeps a snapshot of your per-revision configuration from an app for a while after you remove it. You can run snap saved to see all the current snapshots. It doesn't remove your $SNAP_USER_COMMON directory for that snap (which is where the Firefox snap stores its profiles), so moving from the snapped Firefox to the version from apt is just a matter of moving the .mozilla directory out of ~/snap/firefox/common to ~/
when I don’t have a choice and I am being forced to use what the distro maintainers think is good for me.
That's the case on literally any distro.
And just like on literally any distro, you can also install Firefox from FlatPak, the Mozilla repo or from source.
Except on Ubuntu it just installs the snap regardless. If you don't pay attention you may not even realize that it is a snap. Also the snap store is controlled exclusively by one company with a questionable history.
Read my comment again:
install Firefox from FlatPak
the Mozilla repo
or from source
In none of these cases will Ubuntu be able to install it from snap instead.
Only the Firefox "package" in the Ubuntu repos actually just links to a script that installs the snap.
load more comments
(1 replies)
This is why I switched from Ubuntu to Debian.
Same here. What especially irritated me was that even though I installed the .deb firefox and followed the directions to disable snap firefox, occasionally Ubuntu went ahead and reinstalled snap firefox for me.
Ubuntu was great, until Unity debacle, when I switched to Mint DE. Few years later I returned to an Unity free Ubuntu just to be welcomed with snaps and Ubuntu pro.
How has your experience been so far?
Exactly that same, really. There were a few things I did that I liked about Ubuntu, like the tray icon extension, but otherwise its nearly identical minus snaps.
debian is the best
load more comments
(5 replies)
8.10 was the last good Ubuntu. (It also had the best default wallpaper ever)
If you look at the "improvements" in every release since, you'll notice that shit like they do currently isn't an accident:
9.04 integrated web services into the main user interface.
9.10 integrated Ubuntu One (Ubuntu's OneDrive, upgradable for money) by default and introduced the slooooow Ubuntu Software Center
10.04 integrated an interface to post on social media
10.10 added app purchases in the Software Center
11.04 made Unity the default
11.10 removed Gnome as fallback to Unity
12.04 introduced the buggy HUD
12.10 added the famous Amazon ad lense to it by default
and it goes on like this...
Looks like a NiN album cover.
load more comments
(1 replies)
This is literally the reason why I switched over to Debian. At least back then, snaps wouldn't work if the home folders were not under /home/, breaking all computers on the system I helped run.
At least back then, snaps wouldn't work if the home folders were not under /home/,
Do you mean that it literally had /home/ hard-coded instead of using $HOME? That's crazy if so.
load more comments
(3 replies)
sudo apt-mark hold snapd
Yeah but then your system starts behaving weirdly here and there.
Installed ubuntu on an rpi and firefox there ran snap. Was not very usable. Everything was so slow. Forcing an install of the dep package was the only way to use it. Not very well thought through bu cannonical.
Wait... I'm just about to switch over to Linux on a laptop and was going to use Ubuntu. This looks kind of cursed though?
Tbf, Unbuntu works, but they're ran by a company which has made some questionable choices. You can still go with it if you don't care too much, it has the advantages of being user friendly and well documented.
If you'd rather not, but you want something not too far and equally easy, you can go with Linux Mint, which is based on Ubuntu but disables snaps. They also offer differently choices of desktop environments, the default being Cinnamon (which looks a bit more like windows), and another being Mate, which is closer to Gnome.
They also have a "Debian Edition", which aims to stop being dependant on Ubuntu and may or may not replace the default edition someday, but so far it's not the one they recommend for new users.
Switching to Ubuntu is way, way better than staying on Windows.
That being said, Ubuntu is maintained by the Canonical company, and they have made some really sus decisions in the past. Things like putting Amazon ads in the application launcher and then trying to gaslight people when the inevitable backlash arrived.
The meme above refers to Canonical's own Snap packaging format (think of it like UWP/Microsoft Store apps vs. "regular" Win32 apps), and the way they're pushing for its adoption. Snap is installed by default on Ubuntu and official Ubuntu flavors. You can uninstall it manually, but Canonical has modified the APT package manager so that when an application is available as a Snap package, it automatically installs the Snap back-end and the application as a Snap package without notifying the user (instead of installing the .deb-packaged applications, which is what happens on all other distributions that use APT). Canonical recently also ordered that official Ubuntu flavors (which are maintained by independent groups) can't include Flatpak, a universal packaging format that directly competes with Snap, in their default installations.
Download the live disc images of Ubuntu, Mint, Debian, Arch blah blah etc etc etc.
Distrowatch.com is a great resource.
Take them for a test drive before you commit.
If this is your 1st forlay into Linux and you just wanna ride, do yourself a favor and install Mint. It works, and it's a great way to get into it easily and painlessly and operates (mostly) how you would expect it to coming from another OS.
Welcome
You could try out Linux Mint¹, they're Ubuntu based and disable Snap by default².
load more comments
(13 replies)
load more comments
(17 replies)
view more: next ›