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submitted 2 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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[-] [email protected] 59 points 2 months ago

One of the big themes of the fall of the Roman Republic was that many leaders faced a dilemma: stay in office or face dire legal consequences. Julius Ceasar had to make sure he held office continuously for decades or else he would have been dragged through the courts.

If you asked me 15 years ago, I would have naively said that modern governments do not have this problem. But one look at Trump or Netanyahyu and the logic is clear: do everything to stay in power, because if you fail you get life in prison.

[-] [email protected] 16 points 2 months ago

While I like the comparison between Trump's legal troubles and Julius Caesar's, my inner pedant needs to point out that Caesar was not part of the fall of the Roman Empire. Depending on how you break up the timeline, Caesar was the beginning of the end for the Roman Republic and his heir Augustus was the beginning of the Empire.

[-] [email protected] 14 points 2 months ago

My inner pedant needs to respond and point out that I said "the fall of the Roman Republic".

So we are in pedantic agreement.

[-] [email protected] 12 points 2 months ago
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[-] [email protected] 12 points 2 months ago

It's funny - Caesar (and many other populare politicians) faced state repression from proclamations which suspended the normal functioning of the law and government (Senatus consultum ultimum). Nowadays the goal is to avoid state repression from the normal functioning of the law.

[-] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

It's arguable he crossed the Rubicon with his armies against Rome specifically to avoid the legal consequences of losing power. Cato was living his life to ensure Ceaser would eventually face the courts. Cato would kill himself after that was made unattainable by Caesar's own coup.

“Caesar was reported to be marching against the city with an army, then all eyes were turned upon Cato, both those of the common people and those of Pompey as well; they realised that he alone had from the outset foreseen, and first openly foretold, the designs of Caesar. 2 Cato therefore said: ‘Nay, men, if any of you had heeded what I was ever foretelling and advising, ye would now neither be fearing a single man nor putting your hopes in a single man.’”-Plutarch (Life of Cato)

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[-] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

Julius Ceasar had to make sure he held office continuously for decades or else he would have been dragged through the courts.

I believe Julie C's rein came to an extrajudicial end.

If you asked me 15 years ago, I would have naively said that modern governments do not have this problem.

If you consider Trump's current legal situation, I'd argue we absolutely still are. The political upper crust can be in contempt of court every day of the week for a month and suffer no more than a few fines they will refuse to pay. That's assuming they've pissed off someone powerful enough to actually drop the hammer and aren't pure teflon, a la Ken Paxton or Rick Scott.

So much of the current political moment is highlighted by how utterly untouchable the major party leadership demonstrates itself to be. From Nixon to Cheney to Trump, there's no agent within the system willing to level any kind of punishment.

This leads to increasingly bold actions by people grasping for that next brash ring. Greg Abbott can throw barbed wire into the Rio Grande. Ron DeSantis can ship buses full of migrants into downtown NYC and Chicago in what amounts to a kidnapping attempt. Police in Columbia and UCLA and Austin can round up college students as trespassers within their own campuses. Etc, etc.

Just increasingly illegal and corrupt activities by tin-pot dictators who no longer fear a democratic process that's been caged and disenfranchised into obsolescence.

[-] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

You're not wrong, our current oligarchs can get away with almost anything. The only time they face serious consequences is when there is a coalition of other oligarchs who want to punish them.

Which is why I believe Trump and Netanyahu fall into this political trap of "win or prison". They both have many politically powerful enemies.

Maybe I'm being optimistic, I dont want to come off as a shitlib who's thinking "Mueller is really gonna get Drumpf this time!", but I think its very likely hes going to prison if hes unable to pardon himself.

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[-] [email protected] 56 points 2 months ago

Yeah but to be fair the Romans didn't have Hummers and F150's doing 55 down their roads.

[-] [email protected] 34 points 2 months ago

They would have realized those were designed to go off-road and not wasted their time on the roads with them.

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[-] [email protected] 21 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

They may have had better roads, but they couldn't hold a candle to the spectacle of our many circuses. Id bring up the bread too, but the price gettin a little nutty.

[-] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago

Whereas they gave everyone grain allotments.

Also, I'd say people getting torn up by lions is a much bigger spectacle than whatever Cirque du Soleil is doing lately.

[-] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago

Whereas they gave everyone grain allotments.

Common misconception. Only a specific list of people in the city of Rome received free grain, and it's generally considered that they were more "Skilled working class" than genuinely impoverished in most cases - the point was to maintain the political stability of the city. This isn't to say that there wasn't irregular charity of other forms that got through, or local initiatives, only that the regular grain dole often spoken of isn't it.

They did subsidize grain, regulate the price and weight of bread, and reward bakers who sold bread under a certain price though. But that's not so different from today.

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[-] [email protected] 21 points 2 months ago

Someone actually complained to me (at random, I just happened to be nearby) that their new roommate was running up the water bill because he took a shower every day. That someone would actually bathe daily was a completely foreign concept to them.

[-] [email protected] 17 points 2 months ago

Some of their roads are still in use

[-] [email protected] 16 points 2 months ago

And they fed their population

[-] [email protected] 13 points 2 months ago

Besides the good roads and bath houses what have the Roman's done for us....

[-] [email protected] 12 points 2 months ago

Me, a Roman Senator, explaining why we need to upgrade our twelve lane cobblestone to a fourteen lane cobblestone, as the Visgoths bang at my gates.

[-] [email protected] 12 points 2 months ago

Trump is really more of Elagabalus or maybe Caligula.

It's like we sped-ran past the "effective but tyrannical" ones a d straight into the comically corrupt.

Imagine how much Trump would be if syphilis was a thing.

[-] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago

Common (stupid) german anti-american proverb:

America from barbary to decadence without the detour through culture.

[-] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago

Hey Elagabalus may have had problems but she was 16 and horny and maybe don’t put a horny 16 year old in charge of an empire.

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[-] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

Please let him be Caligula or Nero. I don't want to live through the Crisis of the Third Century.

[-] [email protected] 10 points 2 months ago

They did also have leaded water though

[-] [email protected] 23 points 2 months ago

Yes, but they weren't fully aware of the danger like the U.S. government absolutely is.

[-] [email protected] 44 points 2 months ago

Water conducted through earthen pipes is more wholesome than that through lead; indeed that conveyed in lead must be injurious, because from it white lead is obtained, and this is said to be injurious to the human system. Hence, if what is generated from it is pernicious, there can be no doubt that itself cannot be a wholesome body. This may be verified by observing the workers in lead, who are of a pallid colour; for in casting lead, the fumes from it fixing on the different members, and daily burning them, destroy the vigour of the blood; water should therefore on no account be conducted in leaden pipes if we are desirous that it should be wholesome.

Vitruvius, 1st century BCE

[-] [email protected] 25 points 2 months ago

Damn! Beat me to it.

They also allowed detritus to build up in lead pipes to insulate the water from the lead.

Unfortunately, all these tricks and knowledge didn't stop them from boiling down grapes into their favorite condiment/syrup specifically in lead vessels because the lead made it taste sweeter.

Stupidity is a human constant.

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[-] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Actually, I've read somewhere that they actually found out and did something for it but somehow the information got lost

[-] ricecake 5 points 2 months ago

They let a sediment coating form on the lead. We do that too, and it's why the lead removal programs are only a top priority, and not an active emergency.
It actually works, because it's less a lead pipe, and more a "crusty mineral" pipe, with a lead coating.
Downside being that if you damage that buildup everything goes to shit, hence the decades of working to replace the pipes.

[-] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago

Maybe if Biden killed Trump, who killed Obama, who killed bush, who killed Clinton, and we end up with Barron in charge. And then a foreign mercenary Army who's been fighting America's wars cause they got fat and complacent, decided to turn and take over Washington.

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[-] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago

The main difference in my opinion is a hostile frontier. You can't really compare 5th century Germany to Canada or Mexico (even though the right wing would love that to be the case). No hordes either.

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[-] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago

I guess you could compare the fact that Rome used "barbarians" to fight their wars on the borders with the US love of proxy wars. But I doubt Israel or Ukraine or Yemen is going to invade the US.

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[-] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago

We can't be close to the fall of Rome, we don't have a literal horse that has a vote in the Senate... of course with the retirement of Senator Mitch McConnell, Kentucky would be the state most likely to elect a horse as his replacement. So who knows.

[-] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago

If you didn't know- The horse thing either didn't happen or was a prank to show the senate Caligula's contempt for them rather than a crazy man doing something crazy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incitatus

[-] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago

I was playing Victoria 3 the other day and I wonder what % of the world GDP the US had in its peak, compared to the British or Roman empires.

[-] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago

50% roughly for America, but that's distorted by being immediately after WWII. In the 60s, it was about 25%. Idk about Britain or Rome though

[-] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago

World GDP 2023 was around 105 Trillion US$, the US were around 27T, so about 25,7%

According to Angus Maddison, world GDP around 14AD was about 250B, the roman empire was about 60B (in 2023 US$) so 24% (Roman GDP rose to 100B$ in 150AD, for which i didn't find a reference point in world economy - but i'm pretty sure that by 150AD the roman economy was the largest contributor, which would make their share rise up to max. 40% if the world gdp didn't change much.)

[-] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

I really appreciate that you took time out of your day to answer my random musings. If someone asks if there's hope for humankind, I'll point here.

And now I'm wondering how awkward it would be if you're an AI.

Have an amazing day, friendly stranger.

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[-] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

What is the jab here, we have good roads?

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this post was submitted on 06 May 2024
937 points (97.7% liked)

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