this post was submitted on 06 Aug 2023
152 points (92.2% liked)
NonCredibleDefense
6674 readers
695 users here now
A community for your defence shitposting needs
Rules
1. Be nice
Do not make personal attacks against each other, call for violence against anyone, or intentionally antagonize people in the comment sections.
2. Explain incorrect defense articles and takes
If you want to post a non-credible take, it must be from a "credible" source (news article, politician, or military leader) and must have a comment laying out exactly why it's non-credible. Low-hanging fruit such as random Twitter and YouTube comments belong in the Matrix chat.
3. Content must be relevant
Posts must be about military hardware or international security/defense. This is not the page to fawn over Youtube personalities, simp over political leaders, or discuss other areas of international policy.
4. No racism / hatespeech
No slurs. No advocating for the killing of people or insulting them based on physical, religious, or ideological traits.
5. No politics
We don't care if you're Republican, Democrat, Socialist, Stalinist, Baathist, or some other hot mess. Leave it at the door. This applies to comments as well.
6. No seriousposting
We don't want your uncut war footage, fundraisers, credible news articles, or other such things. The world is already serious enough as it is.
7. No classified material
Classified ‘western’ information is off limits regardless of how "open source" and "easy to find" it is.
8. Source artwork
If you use somebody's art in your post or as your post, the OP must provide a direct link to the art's source in the comment section, or a good reason why this was not possible (such as the artist deleting their account). The source should be a place that the artist themselves uploaded the art. A booru is not a source. A watermark is not a source.
9. No low-effort posts
No egregiously low effort posts. E.g. screenshots, recent reposts, simple reaction & template memes, and images with the punchline in the title. Put these in weekly Matrix chat instead.
10. Don't get us banned
No brigading or harassing other communities. Do not post memes with a "haha people that I hate died… haha" punchline or violating the sh.itjust.works rules (below). This includes content illegal in Canada.
11. No misinformation
NCD exists to make fun of misinformation, not to spread it. Make outlandish claims, but if your take doesn’t show signs of satire or exaggeration it will be removed. Misleading content may result in a ban. Regardless of source, don’t post obvious propaganda or fake news. Double-check facts and don't be an idiot.
Join our Matrix chatroom
Other communities you may be interested in
Banner made by u/Fertility18
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Isn't the black-red flag associated with far-right groups?
Sure. I'm sure Trinidad and Tobago, and Albania, are definitely Nazis. And those anarchists with their black and red flags, they're definitely Nazis too, right?
Seriously though, in this case, it's the unofficial war flag of Ukraine.
It was originally associated with the WWII nationalist Banderite movement, which has some dubious history but is important in the 20th century story of Ukrainian nationalism. However its usage has evolved and is used widely, albeit unofficially, in modern Ukraine, by lots of military-associated groups who have nothing to do with Nazis or fascism.
One of the main selling points of it is that it trolls people who uncritically believe that Ukraine is run by Nazis.
Literally what is being accomplished by this? I'm sure these people feel so incredibly owned by a Ukrainian nationalist flag.
Russians in positions of power have frequently said that Ukraine is an aberration, and doesn't actually exist at all as a national identity. So any Ukrainian symbol is an act of resistance to that.
Why use that particular flag? Well, why does anyone do any trolling? Because it feels good getting an emotional reaction out of other people. Because it feels good sticking it to those people who want you dead, or assimilated.
But also because it helps to figure out who isn't a fan of the concept of Ukrainian statehood. If the initial reaction towards a Ukrainian nationalist flag is that it's "Nazi" then that's a pretty strong signal.
This is like defending the use of a Swastika because it is also a Hindu symbol. Everyone knows this isnt about Trinidad, Tobago, Albania or Ancoms.
I defend the use of the swastika as a Hindu and Buddhist symbol... Also fuck Nazis.
Red and black flags are pretty common antifascist circles and with anarchists and some socialists. Pretty sure the flag here is not related to the upa since it includes the trident... Please school me verbosity if I'm mistaken?
Anyways the community flag is the NATO flag. See below 👇
https://sh.itjust.works/post/2283444
Again to be clear fuck Nazis, fascists and tankies.
THIS red and black flag, not any colored flag. As you said, it is nazi. Why do you think it's used by military groups?
Also, "we are ironically Nazis" Sure
It's worked though, hasn't it? No one with half a gram of understanding of modern Ukraine thinks it's Nazi - nationalist, yes, but not Nazi - and yet there are several accounts on the thread who have taken that bait.
Finding Nazis everywhere is paranoia, and demeans the experience of the millions who suffered and died because of actual Nazis.
No. It is the flag of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army. They were similar to the country of Finland at the time, trying to make their own Ukrainian state against the Soviets (Different than the Finns who already had a state, but wanted territory back from the winter wars) Originally fighting against the Nazis with guerilla tactics,They later cooperated with the Nazis, as they had a common goal - to defeat the Russians. I'm not sure what their plan was afterwards, seeing as the Germans wished to annex that land for "living space" rather than leave it to the supposedly inferior Slavs.
Its meaning in Ukraine, and also cardinal sin, is freedom from the Russians. This is what makes it Nazi to a number of Russians, not because the people who wave it are actually National Socialists, but because they are against Russia.
It's understated how important The Great Patriotic War is to the Russian people. It gives a great boost to national pride. It's when they defeated the enemies of Russia, The Nazis. So crucial it is, that anyone else who seems to want to destroy Russia is in league with the Nazis. It's how you get paradoxes like Vlodomyr Zelensky being called a Jewish Nazi, not because he subscribes to National Socialism, but because he is against Russia.
If we go by this definition of Nazi, the flag is absolutely Nazi. It is the banner of Ukrainian defiance against the Russian giant. The complicated people who once flew this banner does not help the case.
But today, what that flag means to the Ukrainians is freedom from the empire that abused them for hundreds of years and is desperately trying to claw back Ukraine to exploit them once more against the will of the people there
Kamil Galeev has some interesting things to say about how the Russians use the term “Nazi.”
https://nitter.net/kamilkazani/status/1497306746330697738#m
The whole thread is here, and is a very interesting read:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1497306746330697738.html
Also, in case you don’t know who Kamil Galeev is: https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/07/europe/russia-z-symbol-ukraine-war-cmd-intl/index.html
Please show us non military and non ultra nationalist populations using this flag. Also, people from Crimea using it
No because he supports fascism, war crimes, and capitalist usian imperialism
I wish this myth would die. https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/why-putin-calling-ukrainian-government-bunch-nazis
Last I checked there are Russian crewed tanks in Ukraine. Not US crewed ones. If anyone is doing empire building, the Russians are. And before you say it, shut up about NATO expansion. Poland blackmailed the US into joining and Ukraine probably could have joined too in 2009, save for the fact that the rest of NATO didn't want to alienate Russia. There's a reason why public opinion on joining NATO instantly flipped in Finland and Sweden once tanks started rolling across Kerson
The ICC has also issued a warrant for Vladimir Putin's arrest https://www.icc-cpi.int/situations/ukraine
Where are the tanks in Ukraine? Well there are tanks and other heavy weapons from all western countries in Ukraine and part of Russia. It's not Uktaines' war. The territory were already under Russian influence and population. This is classic US vs Russia, NATO vs BRICs
That's not what the loss data shows. https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-ukrainian.html
These are all the visually confirmed losses. Notice how the bulk of the equipment lost is Soviet or Ukrainian. You'd think that there would be visually confirmed losses of US Army men or Marines, but there aren't. Notice also how there are no reported losses of the F-16, F-35, Rafale, Eurofighter or any western fighter. As well as the conspicuous absence of air launched missiles. The only recorded loss that the US has had is 1 MQ-9 Reaper that a Russian pilot struck when trying to light it up with afterburners. Among these Tanks: of 602 tanks destroyed over all, 14 Leos destroyed. (All of which were since June) APC: of 305 destroyed, 4 were NATO (French) IFV: of 682 destroyed, 141 were NATO
As for the Russian population? Sure, they might have spoken Russian, but did they want to be a part of Russia? Independence polls from the early 90s showed Donetsk and Luhansk wanting to leave Russia by over 80 % Kherson an Zapporizia even more so, and yet Russia claims to have annexed them, despite controlling neither.
There are indeed a large number of far right groups in eastern europe (well all of europe now), including Ukraine and Russia. This is nothing new.