this post was submitted on 11 Dec 2024
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This is why we need to reeducate people and stop using the traditional left-right spectrum and start using the axis spectrum
Even the axis spectrum is unproductive, ideologies and frameworks cannot be distilled into single data points on a map, no matter how many axes you add.
The axis spectrum has proven to be very efficient imo. A lot of the politics we talk about are mainly composed of social and economic elements which the axis spectrum portrays well.
How in the world has it "proven to be very efficient"? Did you run laboratory tests?
You cannot distill complicated views into linear axes, though.
And yet tankies do this daily as a defining aspect of their identities.
Inb4 Biden caused ww3 somehow.
WWIII hasn't officially started, as of today. But history may yet point a finger at Biden if his longer range missiles heading towards Russian lands end up being a major factor in it beginning. That's one hell of a hot potato to pass to the next admin. Certainly Biden received some hot potatoes too. Well see how the next six months go.
I don't know what you're trying to refer to, here. Marxists have always discredited the Political Compass as overly simplistic and erasing nuance.
These views aren't complicated though, or aren't as complicated as you think. Most of our political opinions can be boiled down to any of the 4 quadrants of the axis.
Can you name any view that doesn't fit into this axis?
Many. Which is more "authoritarian" and which is more "libertarian," a fully publicly owned and democratically controlled economy, or a highly decentralized market economy with a nightwatchman state?
Well it depends right, let's not act like there isn't nuance to this.
It falls on the libertarian-left if individuals and communities genuinely govern themselves without coercion e.g democratic socialism. However, if the system requires a strong central authority to enforce public ownership and suppress alternative systems, it moves toward the authoritarian-left e.g Marxist-Leninism
This is just a straight up libertarian right economy. A nightwatchman state equals laissez-faire capitalism which aligns with libertarian-right philosophy.
To answer your question, it depends on the type of publicly owned and democratically controlled economy we're talking about.
See, this is where your analogy falls apart. Marxist-Leninists support recall elections and more democratic methods than what you describe as "democratic socialism." You're trying to add to the existing example to make it mean something it doesn't, I asked you a straightforward question and you had to add to it in order to force it into your tidy and neat boxes.
Same with what you call "lib-right," I would consider that more "authoritarian" because people have far less actual control over their lives than they would in the other example, despite focusing on decentralization. In such an economy, warlordism would be the dominant factor in decision making.
This is why the Political Compass is an exercise in absurdity, you cannot simplify viewpoints to 4 quadrants because that's not how economics or politics actually works. You can only describe them by their real and existing mechanisms.
Again my argument isn't that the compass is a rigid framework; rather, it is a guiding tool. Ideologies themselves are not static, but how they are applied or implemented in specific contexts determines where they fall on the compass. This is why i added the nuance earlier.
Take Marxist-Leninism as an example. In theory, it emphasizes democratic control, but in practice, it often relies on centralized enforcement. The inclusion of recall elections might move the system towards the libertarian-left quadrant. However, if those elections are tokenistic or used to maintain centralized authority, the system trends authoritarian-left again. The Political Compass isn’t saying Marxist-Leninism is always authoritarian-left—it’s showing where it falls based on how it’s applied in practice.
Similarly, decentralized market economies might theoretically align with libertarian-right values. But if power becomes concentrated through corporate dominance or "warlordism," it would practically shift toward authoritarianism.
If anything, you agree with me that it is how these ideologies are applied in practice that matters most. No framework is perfect. The political compass, when used with nuance, is a very valuable analytical tool for measuring trends and shifts in governance and power dynamics.
My point is that using it as a tool ends up doing more to obscure the actual mechanisms at play than it does to reveal them, and thus is useless when you can just state the general guiding principles themselves.
Your analysis of Marxism-Leninism is a good example of the dangers of over-simplifying and trying to make sense of it in a manner that fits on the political compass. Marxism-Leninism proposes democratic centralism and a mass line, concepts that have no way to fit on the political compass and yet give more power to the working class than Anarchism would, because Anarchism limits their reach of influence to their internal communes or syndicates. Even in practice AES states have had recall elections.
Additionally, there is no such thing as a "libertarian right," because there cannot be a market based Capitalist economy without corporations dominating it, no matter how small the state, because there is no chance of working class power.
The political compass erases nuance and oversimplifies to dangerous degrees. It's an idealist framing of material reality and distorts trends and mechanisms, rather than helping track them. The sooner it leaves discourse the better the discourse will be.
Look dude, I completely understand and agree with your emphasis on the importance of analyzing real-world mechanisms like democratic centralism, the mass line, or corporate dominance. However, I don't see the political compass as a replacement for detailed analysis—it’s a supplementary tool to map the trends and tendencies of political and economic systems based on their observable outcomes. It isn’t meant to capture every nuance but rather provide a starting point for discussion.
I'm not disputing that democratic centralism and the mass line are important concepts, but they don’t inherently negate the usefulness of the compass. If these mechanisms genuinely empower the working class without coercion, they would trend toward a libertarian-left position. However, if in practice they require centralized enforcement or suppress dissent, they trend toward authoritarian-left. That's it! I don't know why you haven't grasped my point yet.
And even in practice, AES states like the USSR and China have had recall elections, but we can also observe instances where those systems centralized power to a degree that suppressed dissent. Over time, especially under Stalin, centralized power reduced any meaningful democratic processes. The leadership of the Communist Party became increasingly authoritarian, and the political system increasingly suppressed dissent e.g The Great Purges. Recall mechanisms were largely ineffective in curbing authoritarianism - similar things occurred in China under Zedong's rule.
I'm not using this point to take a jab at Marxism, I'm only demonstrating that systems you claim are meant to sustain democracy have actively been dismantled in the past. The compass can simply help map these contradictions over time.
Fair enough, but the compass doesn't deny this. A libertarian-right system is theoretical, and its real-world outcomes could shift to authoritarian-right if corporate hierarchies emerge. This is why nuance matters, even when using the compass.
I see your concern that the compass might oversimplify or distort. But tools like this are not meant to replace detailed material analysis—they’re frameworks to orient discussions and provide a rough map of tendencies. If used with care and nuance, the compass doesn’t erase complexity; it helps track trends and spark dialogue about mechanisms. It’s not perfect, but it’s a tool to orient ourselves in complex discussions. Dismissing it entirely risks losing a useful way to track trends and communicate ideas clearly.
You have not demonstrated any usefulness, and in fact its flaws have caused you to contradict yourself.
Here, your framing of the lib-auth scale is empowering the working class without coercion. It doesn't matter if a system is highly centralized with thorough planning and full public ownership, what matters in this context is the extent to which the working class has power.
This contradicts your previous statement, where centralization doesn't matter, only working class power does, assuming there is no "coercion," which you leave vague and ill-defined.
Moreover, if we define lib-auth as working class power, that means Marxism-Leninism is less authoritarian than Anarchism. I want to reiterate that point, because communes or syndicates have horizontalism in place, there is no control from one commune over another, giving rise to potential power differences and coercion. This doesn't make any sense in the traditional notion of lib-auth!
What this means is that lib-auth must mean, instead, size of government, not how democratic it is, in order to be somewhat useful. This means Marxism is fully auth, as it is for a fully centrally planned economy, yet also democratic. This also seems oversimplified. If we define it as working class power, however, the dynamic flips, and Marxism becomes fully libertarian! This also doesn't make sense.
You can see that, rather than being useful in any capacity, trying to force ideologies and structures onto a grid does more for misinformation than information and needs to be thoroughly forgotten. Ignoring your oversimplification (and frequently wrong, such as the fact that Stalin tried to resign no fewer than 4 times and was democratically rejected, and Mao actually successfully was recalled after the struggles of the Cultural Revolution) analysis of Socialist history, this point remains clear.
To your last points, while it’s true that Stalin did attempt to resign a few times, particularly during moments of crisis or internal conflict, these resignations were never accepted, and this is likely due to his entrenched power and the loyalty he commanded from key figures within the Communist Party. His position was deeply centralized, and while he may have "tried" to step down, he was ultimately not removed from power in any meaningful way.
While these attempts might suggest some level of internal political tension, they don't negate the fact that Stalin's overall control and the repressive mechanisms he put in place (like the purges) show a clear trend toward authoritarianism. The failure of democracy within the system (such as the purging of opposition) is what shaped Stalin’s power in a more authoritarian direction.
Similarly with Mao, while he was temporarily sidelined during the Cultural Revolution, his influence still remained powerful in the political structure of China. The system allowed for a bit of power struggle, but the authoritarian nature of the government under Mao and his followers was never fully dismantled until after his death.
These points CANNOT be disputed by you. You cannot deny that many examples of communism are wholly authoritarian, and that it is largely due to the centralisation of power.
This is a very surface-level analysis of Socialist history, though, your reliance on describing mechanisms in terms of "shifting towards or away from authoritarianism" is precisely the crux of the issue. If you want to say Mao retained influence despite being recalled, describe how and why! Don't just vaguely gesture at "authoritarianism" as though it's a miasma that grows and shrinks, describe how there were many people still loyal to him and his ideas despite the party shifting away from him. By folding it under an umbrella of "authoritarianism" you shroud your points. For Stalin, for example, his resignation was rejected, the fact that it was rejected does not mean it was more authoritarian by itself. Rather, it proves a reverse, that Stalin could not simply do whatever he wanted.
My point is that you attempt to describe nuanced, multifaceted concepts in vague and nondescript terms, and this runs counter to any actual points you are trying to make. I could just as easily call your claim that "I CANNOT" dispute your claims to be itself "authoritarian," but I won't because that's silly too.
I will concede that I'm not well versed in socialist history enough to further buttress my points than i already have. However, you contradict yourself saying "Stalin could not simply do whatever he wanted". This is like saying Hitler wasn't a bad guy because he didn't do the killings himself.
We are both aware of the history of the Soviet Union under Stalin (probably you moreso than me, which confuses me as to why you would suggest Stalin couldn't do whatever he wanted).
Are you suggesting that The Great Purges, The Holodomor influenced by his forced collectivisation, The Gulag system, The Great Terror, The Soviet-Nazi pact, The Katyn Massacre, The Anti-Jewish campaigns and many more atrocities were not examples of Stalin doing whatever he wanted?
I genuinely want to believe that you're not one of those crazy Marxists bud.
No, in no way is that comparable. The CIA didn't believe he was all powerful, and in his attempts to resign, he even tried to suggest eliminating his two positions overall. I suggest that Stalin could not simply do whatever he wanted because I understand, like the CIA did, that he was more of a "captain of the team." He certainly had extensive power and his opinions were held with high weight, but he did not have absolute command nor all-encompasing command. He had the power of his positions, and no more. I suggest reading books on Soviet History post-early 90s, after the Archives opened up.
Please avoid framing this document as the CIA's assessment of the USSR. This is merely collected comments from an undisclosed informant, not a memorandum or anything close to an official statement.
My friend, you're grossly downplaying the severity of your arguments here, and linking to a CIA document and a hexbear thread 💀 isn't assisting the argument. That document (and subsequently YOU) severely underestimates the extent of Stalin's authoritarian control.
Who wrote that document? No really? Talking about how Stalin faced limited external opposition. WELL NO FUCKING SHIT!! BECAUSE HE PURGED ANY OPPOSITION THE SECOND HE HAD THE CHANCE TO!! YOU'D BE OUT OF YOUR MIND TO OPPOSE HIM!!
Also, the document is talking about how he was merely the leader among many. Are you aware that Stalin had absolute control over the NKVD, the military, and the political system? The purges and repression of opposition eliminated any real collective decision-making. His control over the apparatus of power meant that, in practice, his word was final. Khrushchev’s rise to power came after Stalin's death, in part because of Stalin's purging of potential rivals—further solidifying that Stalin was more than just "the captain of a team."
I genuinely can't believe these takes and it can only be retorted by someone who was in support of the actions of his regime frankly speaking. I don't know why you can't be Marxist and condemn the actions of Stalin or all the other authoritarian communist regimes. It's quite frankly ridiculous that you would offer up these points to me as solid rebuttals. I may not be an expert in sociology or history or political science or whatever, and I may just be a college student who engages in political discourse merely as a hobby, but I refuse to take anyone who downplays the acts of Stalin and his regime, nevertheless in the face glaring contradictions, seriously. I'm sorry buddy. I tried to engage in this discussion with you unbiasedly, but i can't take it anymore.
I encourage you to, again, read history books, rather than taking any one person's word for anything. The thread I linked has references posted as well, so you can check the original sources yourself if you question their validity. In order to be a Marxist, it is critical that we learn to separate fact from fiction, and part of that is recognizing that we all have implicit biases. We should not fear searching for more truth. Stalin certainly wasn't a saint, and I am not making him out to be one. I believe you are over-correcting and making critical errors in judgement because of it.
I highly recommend the short, 8 minute article "Tankies" by Roderic Day, hosted over on Red Sails. For more in-depth reading, Stalin: History and Critique of a Black Legend by Domenico Losurdo is a good historical critique of Stalin that focuses on taking a critical stance towards Stalin and contextualizes him.
And i stopped reading there. I don't consider causing the deaths of 20 million people to be "doing more for humanity". I don't think there's anything wrong with Marxism. There's something wrong with the people that believe it however.
You freely admit to being unfamiliar with Socialist history, and yet are unwilling to even finish a short article? It's 8 minutes long, if you refuse to read things you don't agree with without doing the due research to overcome them you doom yourself to blindness.
Seriously, read the full article or you'll never be able to genuinely understand anything you don't already agree with. Better yet you could read the history book, but if you can't be trusted to read an 8 minute article I fear you're simply fine with never even daring to let your preconveived notions be challenged by historical and archival evidence.
I think I'll pass. This is like a Nazi coming up to me and suggesting i consider Nazism because it focuses on national and racial pride. Sounds like a good idea on paper right?
See, equating Communism with Nazism is fascist apologia and perpetuates Double Genocide Theory. This is something you desparately need to correct, if nothing else, because it is a common form of Holocaust minimization. Since you're already under the mistaken impression that Communists and Nazis could ever be in the same category, you definitely need to read Dr. Michael Parenti's Blackshirts and Reds: Rational Fascism and the Fall of Communism. Your refusal to read has taken on direct forms of fascist apologia, unintentional as it may be, and if not for me (as I assume you have no respect for me) then you must do it for yourself.
You just keep recommending more books I can't help but laugh. I used to have respect for you, but it has somewhat waned as of the last hour or so. I even finished that Politzer book.
Also, my comparison is based on how ready both sides are to trivialize the atrocities committed by them.
Hey, kudos for finishing Elementary Principles of Philosophy! credit due where credit is due, it's a phenomenal book and hopefully you understand Dialectical and Historical Materialism more.
Anyway, the core of the matter is that the historical evidence I have seen based on a combination of reading historical books, reading primary sources, and more have led me to have what I believe to be a different understanding of events in both qualitative and quantitative degrees. As an example, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Non-aggression pact. This was a strategic pact made because the USSR tried to align with the west against the Nazis prior to it in order to save Czechoslovakia, but the West denied and sacrificed it, hoping the Soviets and Nazis would kill each other off. It wasn't an alliance, but a means to force the allies to later join the war.
You admit to having no understanding outside Wikipedia articles, which means you have some serious digging to do.
I shall dig in the absence of Marxist propaganda and bias thank you
I agree that working-class power is important in defining whether a system is libertarian or authoritarian. However, the way centralization plays out matters because a system can claim to empower the working class but centralize power in a way that actually diminishes their ability to act or dissent. So, while centralization alone doesn’t determine libertarianism, it does interact with how power is distributed and exercised. That’s why it matters.
You’re also right to point out that centralization itself doesn’t automatically negate working-class power - Hell, i even support centralisation myself in certain economical frameworks - but in practice, we often see centralized control leading to the suppression of dissent and limiting democratic decision-making (coercion). The balance between centralization and freedom is a very fine line, and when centralization stops allowing for genuine worker control, that’s when it shifts toward authoritarianism.
Look, I agree that the political compass is far from perfect. It can oversimplify things, but it’s still useful as a way of understanding where systems might fall in terms of broader trends. The point isn’t to force every ideology into a box, but rather to use the grid as a rough guide while still allowing room for the nuance and contradictions you’re emphasizing. Can you at least agree to this point?
You're not making the case for the political compass by showing the issues with how it treats government power and centralization. My point is that the grid itself fails to convey anything meaningful because it is far too simplistic to give any idea, so no, I will not agree that it has any place. As an example, here are my results of the Political Compass test:
And now here are my results on Left Values (which describes me as an "Eco-Marxist," despite my being a Marxist-Leninist):
Very different results, but why? Because all of these tests are meaningless. I consider myself 0% Utopian and 100% scientific, for example, and I think Union vs Party is a false dichotomy. There are numerous issues with all of these because none of them present a true dichotomy.
Here's an example. Let's say you have a country that collectivized too early, and as such growth slows way down. The Means of Production are not ready for it. Is introducing market reforms as Marx and Engels would have it, with the intention of future recollectivization, right or left wing? Does it matter?
The difference in results does not speak to the ineffectiveness of the political compass test and can be interpreted as the ineffectiveness of the Left Values test alone.
Well, that's sort of a trick question isn't it? The left-right categorization is less useful because what’s happening is a pragmatic response to economic conditions. Whether this temporary shift is seen as 'right-wing' or 'left-wing' is less important than understanding the broader aim. The political compass might not capture these complexities, but the intention behind the reforms would still be left-wing.
Also, this is just a sidenote, but state socialism is just soft totalitarianism. One of the reasons why I'm against transitional phases that explicitly rely on government action.
It's not at all a trick question, it's poking a giant hole in the notion that the Political Compass has any credibility. The answer is that it isn't "left" or "right," but a move towards Marxian economics. It can be considered leftist, yes, but in labeling it left or right in a specific context you ignore that there is a leftist reason to adopt market mechanics, something designated as right wing.
As for your sidenote, I don't see why Marxism is "soft totalitarianism," nor do I know what that means or why you argue "against transitional phases that rely on government action." This is word salad to me and I'd like to know what you're referring to here.
Moreover, why do you believe the LeftValues test to be worse? We've established that I support full public ownership and central planning, and the LeftValues test displays that better than the Political Compass. In fact, the Political Compass puts the PRC at the absolute top despite also being Marxist.
I never said Marxism is soft totalitarianism. I said state socialism is soft totalitarianism - a situation where all requirements for a dictatorship have been met; those are two different things. The reason is because if a situation is created where all property, institutions and means of production are government owned there is a non-zero chance of that government going rogue e.g Stalin.
I never explicitly said it was worse. I'm only saying that it could be a possible reason why your results weren't congruent.
Marxism is "state socialism," so I am not sure what you are trying to say here. Marxism wants full government ownership of production and central planning. Additionally, as we already discussed, Stalin didn't "go rogue," he was elected and retirement was rejected. He was kept because he cracked down on opposition and opportunists within the party, and the central committee deemed this necessary. I provided the transcripts of his resignation speeches in my other comment that elaborate more on this. There was also a thread on Stalin over on Lemmy.ml with nuanced answers on him I recommend checking out.
Stalin was no saint, make no mistake, but he wasn't a "rogue agent" either. He was deeply flawed, no doubt, but he was selected for by the party itself.
As for the left values test not aligning with the political compass, I recommend you reinvestigate that. Clearly it is highly flawed.
What do you define as state socialism? What sort of Marxism do you practice?
The definitions I'm used to are state socialism - A type of socialism wherein some or many of the means of production are controlled by the state, the state in turn being operated by (or on behalf of) the workers.
Marxism - Based on the ideas of Karl Marx, envisions a classless, stateless society where the means of production are collectively owned and controlled by the people.
The point being that in state socialism, power is generally centralized so the workers do not have direct control over the means of production.
Also, why do you keep defending Stalin? I don't think Marx would have condoned any of Stalin's actions. I listed a bunch of atrocities committed by Stalin exercising his totalitarian whims. I guess if the nature of Marxism is to be genocidal, then we can say he didn't go rogue. But if I'm not mistaken, that isn't the case. By all standards, he went rogue.
You are confusing several aspects of Marxism, particularly with respect to the State. The State, for Marx, is an element of class oppression. In a classless society, the "State" doesn't exist, when property is fully collectivized there cease to be classes. What remains is a "state" in the modern linguistic sense, but for Marxists is just "government" or "the administration of things," as Engels puts it. From Socialism: Utopian and Scientific:
Marxism is not Anarchistic, it advocates for a world Socialist republic of full Central Planning and Worker Ownership, complete with hierarchy for planning and whatnot. The "state" isn't a separate thing from the workers, but the workers themselves. The concept of a State is important for the lower stage, when Private Property still exists. From Principles of Communism:
As per Stalin, I don't "defend" him, and don't appreciate your assertions that I do. I again want you to read "Tankies" by Roderic Day. Moreover, your confused understanding of Marx can be alleviated by reading my reading list.
Yet the roadmap of every communist country so far has involved a state and a leader that may or may not have represented the interest of the people. Yeah, it seems like your idols need to go back to the basics
Again, I have specifically argued against idolization. Did you outright ignore the part where Marx and Engels argued for the usage of a state when building up towards Communism? You admit to having little knowledge of Marxism and Socialist history, yet refuse to learn more.
Only because how it should be implemented differs from how it has been implemented. I'm just saying. There's nothing wrong with Marxism. There's something wrong with the people who practice it.
State socialism is soft totalitarianism. There is a non-zero chance that any government that utilizes such a path will succumb to totalitarianism. Thereby making it a flawed system
Also, my knowledge of socialist history isn't too limited. I know enough to know that Stalin didn't do more for humanity than even the most corrupt of third world country politicians.
How should it be implemented in your eyes? You speak in vague, non-Marxist idealism like "soft totalitarianism," when you should already know better having read Politzer.
It should be implemented the way Marx thought it should. If it still cannot be properly carried out after that, then Marxism is flawed.
Very funny. Soft totalitarianism is a term i came up with, am proud of, and will continue to use for the foreseeable future.