this post was submitted on 22 May 2024
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ITT: you're a Trump supporter if you call genocide genocide.
There's a lot of people who plan on voting Biden, myself included, who effectively feel held hostage at this point. "Don't criticize support for genocide or Trump is going to destroy the country and probably kill a lot of people" is probably one of the most frustrating political discourses I've ever experienced. The folks making this argument are right in that Trump winning is bad for everyone, including the Palestinians, and I can empathize with the pragmatism there. That said, that argument rings hollowly for me, because it comes across as so utterly cynical. It reads (to me) as though genocide registers at the same level of urgency as dysfunction at the DMV. They're sorry for the inconvenience (and probably they really are sorry that it's happening) but non-combatants getting starved, shot, drone striked, and buried under rubble by our allies is just not something that's convenient to deal with right now. I wonder if they think the Palestinians find it very convenient.
I mean its barely about what people here think.
Broadly, Biden supporting this genocide in the way that he has is costing him the election. Acknowledging this doesn't mean you support Trump. Arguing that if you don't support Biden in-spite of this position is headspinning, and some posters here (@[email protected] ) are doing the work of trying to separate the left from Democrats in this regard.
The problem is that beating/ guilting/ shaming voters doesn't work. It literally never has. Its been demonstrated, over and over again to be a counterproductive strategy.
So what if you've been convinced that its OK for Biden do a little genocide? The whole god-damned point is that other people don't believe the same thing you do, and if you actually want to stop Trump you really only have two options. You can either try to convince voters that a little genocide is acceptable if its coming from Democrats, or you can try and convince Democrats that no amount of genocide is acceptable, regardless of the ally committing it.
Its far more sensible to bring your criticisms to the Democrats in showing that you wont vote for them if they don't shift their positions on Gaza, than it is to engage in a demonstrable failure of an approach to rhetoric to try and shame people into voting for a only slightly less supportive of genocide candidate.
You can move a politician. Every election cycle politicians move positions. I mean fucking hell, look how far the left was able to drag Biden last election cycle! He basically went from a Republican slate of policy positions to something actually on the left. He didn't do this his own; he did this to get elected because that's what the voters wanted. Biden can be moved on this, but blaming voters, especially when you know they are on the right side of the issue, is setting 2024 up for disaster.
I'm just amazed at the amount they punch left then don't understand why it's always an issue.
Maybe I've gotten too old and cynical to be surprised by it.
Its been the theme of the modern Democratic party to work diligently to cut off your nose to spite your face.
I mean look at the recent jungle primary in California. Adam Schiffs campaign spent millions supporting Republicans in that primary to avoid having to compete against Katie Porter.
It often seems like Democrats have nothing but contempt for their voters. Its not clear to me that they care. Its only a very very few number of Democrats who are actually responsive to their voters.
I hate how dirty they did Katie. But not surprised considering she'd actually hold people to account.
(and of course you got banned from the community but pug is allowed to constantly attack people)
There were 24 hours of bliss about a week ago when pugjesus was temp banned
Just amazed they banned someone for trolling while pug gets to shit and spam everywhere in this community
Frankly I'm a bit alarmed i haven't been banned myself. I can imagine the mod logs are full of complaints at this point
You forgot to add gaslighting.
The problem is that there is absolutely no way of "forcing" the (so-called) "Democratic" party on this through "formal" means - if you vote for them and they win, they will simply know that they can get you to rubber-stamp their complicity in genocide. If you vote for them and they lose or you punish them by not voting and they lose, they still won't care - they know that four years of Trump will force you back to the ballots to vote for them in four years' time anyway. In fact, I suspect they are betting on the latter scenario.
You're being pushed up against a wall - a wall that wouldn't be there if you actually lived in a democratic society.
Everyone should block PugJesus for a better Lemmy experience.
PugJesus has been a constant wedge between Leftists and Liberals. They only serve to be a terminally online agitator, and whenever it's pointed out that their agitative propaganda only serves to confirm anti-leftist bias among Lemmy.world's liberals and further ruins a broader leftist-liberal coalition, ironically making fewer people vote for Biden, they just mald and disengage.
When I asked what they truly believe, they believe themselves to be a leftist that doesn't agree with Marx's Dialectical Materialism.
They reserve only the harshest criticism for actually existing Socialist movements, such as when they trashed the Black Panther Party, but fight tooth and nail for a nuanced view of Liberalism and Liberal movements against Leftists.
No leftist is pure enough, no liberal impure enough.
It truly makes me wonder if PugJesus has any actual firmly held beliefs or if they just act in reflex.
I'm gonna go touch some grass, i'll pass my baton to you.
Gotchu.
W How is it costing him the election any polls to back this up?
This is such a weird strawman
Nobody on Lemmy likes genocide, as far as I can tell. I saw somebody who was in favor of it a couple days ago, which makes 2 users I have ever seen.
So first a whole bunch of people got up and said, I'm never voting for Biden because he ruined the economy and fucked up on climate change and made marijuana illegal again and did family separation and caused Covid and also personally did a genocide and is super happy about the war in Gaza because it's exactly what he wanted
Then a second whole bunch of people said hey every single one of those things except part of the last one isn't true, also, Trump is worse on the genocide piece
And so now the first people are insisting that what the second people said was, "Don't criticize support for genocide". That wasn't the point. The fact that a good bit of what the people in the first group are saying, is wrong, means they get people disagreeing with them, which always gets misrepresented as some lunatic pro-genocide silencing of criticism. But it's pretty much never a message of "please stop criticizing my genocide guy otherwise Trump might win."
If you want to express urgency about helping the Palestinians, please do so. Send messages to your congresspeople. Vote "uncommitted." Go to a protest. Tell Biden he'll only get your vote if he (X, Y, Z). Any of those things, or something else. Sounds great.
I think the thing you're hearing is more "I want to end genocide just as much as you do, now let's talk about how to do it, and also yes how to avoid one that's 10 times worse that depending on how we go about it might be one of the possible outcomes." I don't see why that would be frustrating to hear. And I don't think it's at all the same as "please stop criticizing Biden that's not allowed" or anything like that. Most of the threads on this topic have their most upvoted comment as "Jesus Christ I wish he wouldn't do that" or something along those lines; this fiction where criticizing Biden for enabling this genocide is at all unpopular is not at all the reality.
Actually, one of them weighed in on Lemmy on this exact narrative, where people are using his dead relatives to justify this one very particular political stance about being reluctant to vote for Joe Biden (and for some reason not to justify getting involved in some electoral or non-electoral way to actually help his relatives who are still alive). He wasn't about it.
Is it a straw man, though? Just look at the post we're in. OP, at face value, wants the democrats to win but thinks they're bungling the odds by supporting genocide. There's already multiple commenters accusing them of being Trump supporters, as well as at least one commenter I've seen so far suggesting that we can't be critical about this now because the election is too important.
Every additional issue Biden ignores he looses a portion of his base's enthusiasm. Sure, some of these people would never vote for Biden for a bunch of reasons, but everyone has a limit to what they're willing to concede on, and I have to say that supporting a genocidal project is a pretty big one.
It would be irresponsible if we weren't sounding the alarms that he's strayed too far away from his winning coalition. That's not me being principled (even though it is), that's me being pragmatic.
Everyone else who's rallying a couple hundred users on lemmy to ignore that issue is covering their eyes to the oncoming train.
I've been on the receiving end of names such as "Genocide Lover" and man is that just exactly what I wish my Dad who went to get cigarettes and never came back would have called me before he left. I agree with you. People for some damned reason seem to be stuck.
The Genocide sucks balls.
Trump sucks balls.
Trump + Power = Genocide Ball Sucking on a whole new level
Biden sucks a bit less balls, though would suck far less if he stepped up and actually condemned the Genocide properly. Currently, Biden's big balls are on fire.
Like, none of this situation is good. Most of it is malicious and evil on too many levels, and faaaar more complicated than the majority of us realize. At the end of the day we do have three significant immediate problems:
We CAN focus on all of these and it doesn't have to be to the exclusion, or support/lack-thereof, of the others. Problem is, every time you say "Shit's bad and this Genocide is evil, vote Biden for the love of God." Someone comes screaming in with a, "BIDEN?! YOU SUPPORT GENOCIDE?!" and you can't get a sideways word in.
I think a lot of it is this weird parasocial thing where it's like you have to "support" a politician to vote for them. With very rare exceptions I don't "support" any US politician, like I'm friends with them. I just want to get as good an outcome as I can for me and the other people in the world, and I think that'll come from a combination of choosing better outcomes within the system that's presented, and working outside the system to try to change it to introduce as much actual democracy into it in the long run as is possible.
I personally think the alternative perspective is a weird one, where politicians and policies are monolithic and unmovable, and challenging them necessarily means damaging the entire system. I was always taught that the strength of democracy was its enabling of negotiation, but you're suggesting that there's no negotiation to be had at all.
I think proactively committing to voting for a morally abhorrent candidate (a candidate promoting a morally abhorrent position, if you prefer) is less than submissive, it's actually giving up the only possible leverage you might have had in order to accept a reality that hasn't happened yet.
It's absolutely a choice you are making, and even if you'd feel better if that didn't make you guilty of 'supporting' genocide, i think it's kind of self-evident.
I talked about this - withholding your vote to put pressure on Biden and communicating to him effectively that that's what you're doing makes perfect sense to me. I linked to the Ralph Nader article where he talks about doing that.
If I thought Biden read Lemmy and would read my comments and react differently in Gaza, would I do my comments differently, so as to avoid taking the pressure off him that he's currently feeling? Yeah, maybe. Probably. I don't think that's the reality, but if I thought that, I probably would do my comments differently.
I'm just saying how I look at the election. Unless Biden had some sort of mental break that made him start acting worse than Trump in terms of what he'll do with power, I'm planning on voting for him. If I thought lying about that would create a positive impact in some way, then yeah, maybe I might. IDK. Maybe not. I definitely wouldn't be as vocal about how ok a job he's doing, yeah.
Proactively committing to not voting for preservation of American democracy and prevention of catastrophe around the world, because Netanyahu started a genocide and Biden hasn't caused a revolution in American statecraft by opposing it for the first time in history, doesn't make a ton of sense to me, though. Why is the genocide in Gaza a red line but preventing a genocide in Ukraine, or saving a million American lives from the next pandemic, or mitigating climate change (to whatever extent we even still can) moving the needle away from billions of lost lives in the not-too-distant future, why aren't those red lines?
It seems kind of weird to get all amped up about how great a job you're doing at not supporting genocide, by doing something that endangers Palestinians specifically but also apparently makes you feel better. I think I linked somewhere to a comment from someone who claimed to be Palestinian American who actually specifically asked Americans not to do this (use his dead relatives as justification for their political stance which was going to endanger him much more along with many of his still living relatives). It's on bestof if you didn't see it.
I don't think you realize how far reaching popular opinion can spread through social media. I don't think Biden is reading, either, but if the sentiment that he'll lose was more widespread, then I think that would absolutely put pressure on him. I also think the complacent stance can reach quite far, which is why it's frustrating seeing people like pugjesus so militant about reinforcing it and why I think it's frustrating to you to see me and others agitating action. (It wouldn't make sense for you to be worried about bad actors otherwise)
I'll tell you what I read into this: American imperialist state action is so ingrained in the democratic party that it is inconceivable to you that they'd let it go, even in the face of a literal fascist taking control. And I think the people you're talking to here, who've felt for a long time that America has been on the wrong side of geopolitical struggle for 80 years, find that to be the most damning part of your position.
It's inconceivable to wish fascism onto the people of America and the world, but that the democratic party can sooner accept it than consider pulling back the American global apparatus is... well, I guess it makes it hard to root for them, doesn't it?
I think what you mean is that it's convenient, but I obviously don't see it that way. I think it would absolutely help the Palestinians for the US to stop obstructing justice against Israeli leaders, and I don't accept the premise that their reality would somehow be worse than it already is if trump was egging Israel on. The UN is already poised to react against Israel, if they cross a lot more lines they'd risk expulsion (along with us). Who knows, but it's not just about Palestinians, the US has abused its influence across the globe and setting the record straight about what the electorate will tolerate would undoubtedly help more countries down the line, if Biden accepts the critique.
For the record: this is a strawman. You know that saying about Republicans always accusing others of the things they're guilty of themselves? I would suggest not following the Republican playbook.
As someone who frequents worldnews from lemmy.world, a sizable amount of IDF apologists who do actually defend genocide show up every week, although they consistently get banned.
There's also a bunch of wackos on Hexbear and Lemmygrad who will sneer with joy at the idea of Ukrainians getting displaced to never be able to return, although you have to dig in to find them.
If you have to vote for him anyway this is an empty threat. And they know it.
Criticize all you want. I certainly do. But understand at the end of the day that as pathetically little as Biden is doing to help, he isn't doing literally zero. Allowing Trump to win is objectively voting for MORE genocide, and in fact, the end of any potential for a Palestinian state in any form. None of this is secret - none of this is speculation. If people would take 15 minutes and read the ACTUAL Trump middle eastern peace plan that he ACTUALLY PUT FORTH when he was president, it's pretty obvious he would allow MUCH MUCH worse than Biden without batting an eye.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_peace_plan
There is no room for argument on that. Is Biden bad for Palestinians and allowing genocide? Yes. Would allowing Trump to win be WORSE? Yes. You're upset that angry wolves are eating someone, and you should be. But the solution is not replacing them with angry bears.
They literally just said they were voting for Biden. Why are you lecturing them? All you're doing is demonstrating that Democrats don't listen.
Okay, fair point, and I acknowledge it. I'm no saint and I get preachy. It's a character flaw, and I apologize if I caused offense.
It's not just a character flaw you have - it appears to be endemic to dem apologists in general.
Since you're one of the first I've seen even acknowledge it, I would love to understand from you what kind of media diet or environment produces this blindness to critique. I suspect it comes from abject terror of conservatives & fascism and a sense of powerlessness to affect real change outside the narrow system given to you by voting, even though voting is also deeply disempowering.