this post was submitted on 20 Oct 2023
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It is not needed, nor fitting here [in discussing the Civil War] that a general argument should be made in favor of popular institutions; but there is one point, with its connections, not so hackneyed as most others, to which I ask a brief attention. It is the effect to place capital on an equal footing with, if not above, labor, in the structure of government. It is assumed that labor is available only in connection with capital; that nobody labors unless somebody else, owning capital, somehow by the use of it induces him to labor. This assumed, it is next considered whether it is best that capital shall hire laborers, and thus induce them to work by their own consent, or buy them, and drive them to it without their consent. Having proceeded thus far, it is naturally concluded that all laborers are either hired laborers or what we call slaves. And further, it is assumed that whoever is once a hired laborer is fixed in that condition for life.
Now, there is no such relation between capital and labor as assumed, nor is there any such thing as a free man being fixed for life in the condition of a hired laborer. Both these assumptions are false, and all inferences from them are groundless.

Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.

  • Abraham Lincoln
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[–] [email protected] 70 points 10 months ago (2 children)

It’s a good thing Lincoln didn’t live today. With talk like that he would have been labeled a communist or enemy of the elite, and there probably would have been some conspiracy plot to kill him… oh wait.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 10 months ago

It’s a good thing Jesus didn’t live today. With talk like that he would have been labeled a communist or enemy of the elite, and there probably would have been some conspiracy plot to kill him… oh wait.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 10 months ago

Yeah, if someone like Lincoln got elected, conservatives would start a civil war...

[–] [email protected] 52 points 10 months ago (1 children)

If your only job is to own things, you are a parasite, not a creator.

[–] JohnDClay 9 points 10 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 11 points 10 months ago (1 children)
[–] JohnDClay 3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Economies work much much better with loans. You proposing no loans, or only from heavily regulated government bodies?

[–] [email protected] 11 points 10 months ago (1 children)

No bank is not equivalent to no loans.

[–] JohnDClay 3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

So who would give loans? A government agency?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Cooperatives or trade unions.

[–] JohnDClay 2 points 10 months ago (2 children)

How would they operate differently to a bank?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 months ago (1 children)

They wouldn't be required to make a profit at the expense of society well being.

[–] JohnDClay 3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Banks aren't either. It's the goals of the shareholders that determine that. How would the goals of the stakeholders of the cooperatives or trade unions differ from those of the shareholders of current banks?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Sharholder Primacy remains the law of the land. Publicly owned companies are obligated to maximize profits at the expense of all other mores and duties.

This might work if they could be tightly regulated, perhaps, but regulatory capture isone of the most profitable efforts an industry can make.

Publicly owned companies are entirely antagonistic to the public and a public-serving government, and they are at literal war with the people.

[–] JohnDClay 3 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

I was corrected myself on this, public companies don't need to maximize return, they just need to do what's in the best interest of the shareholders. And the shareholders decide that maximizing return is their best interest. I'll try to find the link someone sent me.

Edit: I can't find it right now, but look into fiduciary duties, it's to act in the best interest of the shareholders, not necessarily to maximize their return.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago

I suspect that it's something of a diffusion of responsibility problem. (Responders come to the aid of those bleeding on immensely busy streets rather than on empty streets due to passersby more likely assuming someone else will manage the problem. Factors such as cultures of duty-to-act and litigation risk and good-Samaritan laws can adjust this specific effect.) It's also one of the reasons boards of directors can get pretty ruthless when the result they want has poor moral implications.

One of the factors is that brokers get commissions based on the shares they move, so it does them no good if their clients buy a ton of stock in a solid blue-chip company and then hold onto those shares for a while (a strategy that is served by a plan for long term growth). So they and their dailies-playing clients are served by short term gains. Too much of that and we end up with the default being fuck the public, I want my money.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

What difference does it make, in the real world? Which publicly traded companies have their shareholders "decide" that maximizing returns is not their priority?

[–] JohnDClay 1 points 10 months ago

Exactly, but I think that would hold true for any owners. So banks owned by the people would eventually devolve to the same point, since they would have the same selfish incentives.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

Credit unions have two big differences:

  • All depositors are effectively shareholders in the credit union. Any profit they make beyond paying standard interest and regular bills goes back to depositors. Those depositors are mostly regular people, and in a more socialist society, would also be companies that are otherwise owned by the workers.
  • No fractional reserve banking, which allows banks to issue loans several times the value of their deposits. If fractional reserve was a new thing rather than something that's been in the system for longer than anyone has been alive, it would be looked upon far more skeptically as a big scam. This is where banks are milking the rest of society for a lot of profit.
[–] JohnDClay 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Isn't fractional reserve banking using most of your deposits to make investments? If that is what you're taking about, I don't see how credit unions could give loans at all, since they'd need to keep all the money on hand. Am I misunderstanding what you're talking about?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional-reserve_banking

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Fractional reserve means they don't need to back up every dollar of a loan with a dollar in deposit. Say they get $10 dollars in deposits. They might give out 10 loans of $9 dollars each based on that deposit. $90 was put into the economy based on $10 in deposits.

This also chains to other banks. Each of those $90 will likely end up in a bank (same one or another one) as a deposit. That bank can now do the same thing. Fractional reserve thus greatly multiplies the amount of money in circulation well beyond what the central bank actually issues.

[–] JohnDClay 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Wouldn't the depositors still want a high interest rate? That would still incentive the same sorts of loans as current banks.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

In practice, no. Depositors often take out loans at the same credit union, so they have incentive to keep it low. Even if they don't, the credit union is still one of many, and has to compete for market rates.

Generally, compared to traditional banks, credit unions in the real world have a slightly lower interest rate for loans, and a slightly higher interest rate on deposits.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I’m doin the drywall down at the new McDonald’s

[–] [email protected] 8 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Two chicks at the same time

[–] Assman 6 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Chicks dig dudes with money

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago

Well not all chicks…

[–] [email protected] 12 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Cool quote from Lincoln, never read it before. Imma see if I can get AI to paraphrase it for easier digestion...

[–] [email protected] 20 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Here, let me give it a shot:

Work has existed far longer than profit. Profit is reliant on, and could not exist, without work. Work is far more important than profit, and should always be prioritized.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 10 months ago

Not really prioritized but more valuable from what I understand.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 months ago

And it's not exactly "work" so much as it is "Labor" in the sense of "the people who do the work."

[–] [email protected] 8 points 10 months ago (4 children)

And yet, without capital the company wouldn't exist.

[–] [email protected] 28 points 10 months ago

The useful parts of it would. People made and distributed things as well as providing services before capitalism and would continue to do so after the abolition of it.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 10 months ago (1 children)

what do you mean? do you think in an economy without capital that people would never undertake to do things?

What problem does capital solve? only that without capital people undertaking to do new things would starve in the initial phases. So what if, should a community be convinced that something is a good idea, the people involved in the attempt were just provided for?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago (2 children)

The profit motive to form a company, which will provide you with more profit than any government program that provides for you is the driver.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I partially agree in that under our capitalist system the profit motive drives it.

It's not the only motive, capitalism is what 200 years old? maybe more if we go all the way back to the east India companies. It's not like nobody made new things before then.

Profit motive is one way to motivate people. Even if it's more effective than others (which is entirely unsubstantiated) it's astonishingly cruel.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago

Also there can be a motive of reasonable profit to a certain extent without this. If the reward is closer to a founders fee where the workers default to buying the company off the founder then that’s still motivating it without creating a system of petty dictators. If the labor of founding a company is treated as labor, compensated reasonably for the work put in, and comes without the risk of money addiction that may work fine.

Or we could have construction crews traveling and pulling a full music man schtick to start companies. It’s probably less efficient but way better aesthetically

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago

A lot of things get lumped into "profit motive". Help my neighbor clean their yard for a small fee? Profit motive. Invent a cure for polio and sell it for $1? Profit motive. Establish a monopoly on a life saving drug and drive up the retail price? Profit motive.

Funny how "Profit motive" doesn't make a distinction between solving a problem and making a problem for others.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Capital generated by... labor

[–] JohnDClay 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Is determining stability for a loan and applicable interest rates labor?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

You would have to show how you made sufficient surplus from sales minus the cost of labour to pay off the loan. The business case usually has a solid section on this.

Obviously there is a future made of automation and ai but that is also the end of capitalism as the workers have not been paid to buy the product you just made.

[–] JohnDClay 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

But what is the fair cost of labor? It seemed like the meme was saying that any surplus was wrong because it should have gone to the physical laborers instead.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

The laborers, management (assuming they actually manage) and administration (who generally does administrate as is underpaid like labor), so yes.

[–] JohnDClay 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Yes it's wrong to have any surplus? So then deciding who is best to give loans to wouldn't be labor?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago

At this point it's difficult to say if a cooperative should return profits to the staff in dividends, or assign (possibly by sortition) someone to decide what to do once all expenses are managed. There are a number of ways to consider future expenses, including expansion and repairs. Just because we've depended on loans in this society doesn't mean loans are the only way this can be done.

What I do know is the current system is leaving us with a captured government and members of the society homeless, going hungry, freezing from the elements or imprisoned in huge numbers, so really it's time to try anything over letting the plutocratic elite stay in power. Given we're not responding to crises that could end our species, even literally hunting down and eating the elite factions is on the table (just as massacring the poor has been for all of history).

Even the capitalists openly admit in order to argue that capitalism can work, you have to make sure the population from which you draw labor isn't suffering, and we've failed to do this. (Marx explains that the capture of a public-serving government is inevitable when there is a power disparity.)

[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago

Barn-raisings happen.