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submitted 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

Modified post. Read the edit at the buttom.

Now, call me crazy, I don't think so! I have been an addict and I know how it is to be an addict, but I don't think sugar is as addictive as cocaine. And I really am frustrated with people who say such things.

This notion that it's as addictive drives me crazy! I mean, imagine someone gullible who says, well, "I can control my addiction to ice cream, heck I can go without ice cream for months, if it's as addictive as cocaine, why not give cocaine a chance? It's not like it's gonna destroy me or something?" Yeah, I have once been this gullible (when I was younger) and I hate this.

I do crave sugar and I do occasionally (once per week and sometimes twice a month) buy sugary treats/lays packet (5 Indian Rupees, smallest one) to quench that craving, but I refuse to believe that it is as addictive as cocaine or any other drugs. PS: My last lays packet was 45 ago and I am fine, and this is the most addictive substance I have consumed.

I am pretty some people here have been addicted to cocaine (truly no judgement, I hope you are sober now), so what say you?

PS: If you haven't been addicted to anything drastic as drugs, you are still welcome to chip in.


edit: thank you all for adding greater context.

I realize now that when they talk about sugar, they are not just talking abt lays and ice creams, but sugar in general. I get the studies now. But media is doing a terrible job of reporting on studies.

Also, the media depiction of scientific studies is really the worst. I mean, they make claims which garbage and/or incomplete data or publish articles on studies which make more alarming claims. Also, maybe wait for a consensus before you publish anything, i.e., don't publish anything which isn't peer reviewed and replicated multiple times. Yes, your readers might miss out on the latest and greatest, but it isn't really helpful if the latest and greatest studies in science aren't peer reviewed and backed up well by data.

I feel like a headline "SUGAR IS AS ADDICTIVE AS COCAINE" can and will be life destroying if you don't give enough information. I feel like there should be an ethical responsibility to not sensationalize studies, maybe instead of "SUGAR IS AS ADDICTIVE AS COCAINE" give a headline like "Sugar and Addiction, what science says."

also, https://i.imgur.com/VrBgrjA.png ss of bing chat gpt answering the question.

some articles: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/aug/25/is-sugar-really-as-addictive-as-cocaine-scientists-row-over-effect-on-body-and-brain

https://www.healthline.com/health/food-nutrition/experts-is-sugar-addictive-drug

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/cravings/202209/is-sugar-addictive

https://brainmd.com/blog/what-do-sugar-and-cocaine-have-in-common/

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[-] [email protected] 81 points 9 months ago

I challenge anyone who says sugar isn’t addictive to go a week without. No sugar. No sugar substitutes like fructose. I’ve done it. It is awful.

I’ve also done hard drugs. Quitting those are awful too.

The difference is that I haven’t done drugs in decades but I still have a pack of Oreos on my counter.

[-] [email protected] 21 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

See, the impracticality here is not that I'd be jonesing for sugar, it's that almost all processed food and most natural food has a little sugar in it, and also that our bodies literally require some simple carbohydrates to operate. Best case, you go on a hard keto overnight, and yes, the first week is terrible, because keto is a stupid fucking diet that doctors don't recommend because it sucks.

Yes, if I eat nothing but beef and saltines for a week, I'm going to feel like shit. That's not an addiction issue.

[-] [email protected] 11 points 9 months ago

Fun fact exogenous sugar is not required in the human diet. The body will produce sugar in the liver through a process called gluconeogenesis converting fat into sugar. But it only needs to do that a little bit.

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[-] [email protected] 17 points 9 months ago

To that challenge I would specify "in anything". Sugar and equivalent is in almost all processed foods.

[-] [email protected] 16 points 9 months ago

Going without a basic macro nutrient making you feel bad doesn't mean its addictive. You'd feel like shit if you tried to go without oxygen too. Your body doesn't need as much sugar as many consume, but it's more than nothing.

[-] [email protected] 11 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Sugar is not nutritionally required. Humans can live without sugar in their diet, including carbohydrates. Paleo/keto are viable diets the humans live with throughout history.

So it is not a necessary macronutrient. It is not necessary like oxygen.

Of course the literature has many assumptions about sugar, and it's easy to get confused. Which is why we need more foundational nutritional research from the ground up not sponsored by corporations. To help clarify all of this.

But if you know of even one person who does strict keto, and there's still alive, it's clearly not as necessary as oxygen.

The human body can create glucose from fat sources, it's called gluconeogenesis and it happens in the liver. But it only produces small amounts of blood glucose. And because it synthesize sugar from fat, exogenous sugar is clearly not biologically necessary

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[-] [email protected] 9 points 9 months ago

Are you just talking about refined sugar or are you including natural sugar in that too?

Is it even possible to eat healthily for a week with no sugar?

I feel like if I'm allowed fruit it'd be pretty easy tbh.

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[-] [email protected] 42 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10284150500485221

Studies done on mice, and mice addiction to sugar, and mice addiction to other drugs. Are these studies directly applicable to humans? That's a good debate, it's hard to say. But the studies do show that mice have a stronger preference to sugar than to other drugs.

I do keto, I go for the absolute absence of sugar, try to get less than 20 grams per day.

The first two weeks is very difficult. Especially the first 3 to 4 days. We're talking hallucinations almost, deep cravings, it's very difficult to kick the habit. I can't compare it to other addictions, but the effect is very real.

[-] [email protected] 19 points 9 months ago

In fairness, if I was locked in a box all day, I wouldn't want to do coke either. Take the mice to a club and see if they stick to the sugar then ;)

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[-] [email protected] 10 points 9 months ago

I didn't go full keto, but I did tighten up my sugar consumption once and tried to keep it as close to zero as possible for a couple of weeks.

I can't say I had hallucinations, but the cravings are seriously real. I didn't even stop because of the cravings though, I stopped because sugar is so ubiquitous in everything that trying to find a drink to buy while working that didn't contain sugar and I actually liked was difficult. I tried drinking tea with stevia as a main drink, but the taste of it never really acquired for me.

[-] ryathal 21 points 9 months ago

For drinks you are way better off getting used to water and sparkling water as primary drinks, use mio or crystal light if you really need flavor at first. Once you get used to water, it's pretty easy to stick to just water.

[-] [email protected] 9 points 9 months ago

I say do the study directly on humans! Now give me some cocaine ;)

[-] [email protected] 15 points 9 months ago

I've heard it's as addictive as sugar. Be careful.

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[-] [email protected] 32 points 9 months ago

The thing that really causes addiction isn't so much the physical dependence, but the psychological dependence.

Almost all drugs (including Cocaine) have only very short term withdrawal effects. If it was only physical dependence, all you'd have to do to break any substance addiction is to lock that person up for a few weeks, until the drugs are out of the system and that's that.

The long-term effects are purely psychological. Usually, your life is shit, you got some pretty heavy problems or you have other psychologial issues like depression. And you know that substance X will help you to feel good, even if only for a short time. So you take the substance again to forget and feel good.

Because of this, you can get severely addicted to stuff like gaming, smartphones, social media, shopping or gambling, even though there is no substance involved at all.

Remeber the high-profile study about a rat that was locked alone in an empty cage and the only things it had available to distract itself from it's misery where a bottle of regular water and one filled with cocaine water.

The rat used cocaine until it died of an overdose.

This experiment was repeated, but this time there was a whole rat family in a really nice cage with a lot of things to do. This time some of the rats did a bit of cocaine sometimes, but never in excess and no rat overdosed.

Sugar, together with the physical withdrawals (which do really exist), is really tough on the psychological side due to its extremely easy availability and omnipresence.

To get cocaine you need to find a dealer, spend a rather big amount of money and you are always aware that if you are caught, there are some very serious consequences.

To get sugar, you walk into the kitchen. Worst case, you go down to the next shop, spendless than an Euro on the substance and consume it completely legal without fear of any repercussions.

Or you wait until someone gifts you some sugar for birthday, Christmas, Easter, or any other holiday. Or just because they are nice.

This super easy availability means, there are hardly any barriers where you can say "Actually, I wanted to stop" and stop what you are doing.

[-] [email protected] 11 points 9 months ago

nice comment, thank you!

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[-] [email protected] 31 points 9 months ago

Sugar addiction is not the same as a drug that causes physiologic dependence, like cocaine or opiates.

But

You can become addicted to sugar, or anything that makes you feel good, because you’re basically hacking into the cocaine repository that’s already in your brain. Anything that triggers a hit of dopamine and/or noradrenaline - gambling, shopping, sex, food, weed - can cause addictive behavior, but you’re essentially addicted to your own neurotransmitters and not the thing itself.

[-] [email protected] 25 points 9 months ago

I want to respond to your edit:

wait for consensus before you publish, don't publish anything that isn't peer reviewed and replicated multiple times.

You need to understand that publishing is the way scientists communicate among each other. Of course, all reputable journals conduct peer review before publishing, but peer review is just that: Review. The peer review process is meant to uncover obviously bad, or poorly communicated, research.

Replication happens when other scientists read the paper and decide to replicate. In fact, by far most replication is likely never published, because it is done as a part of model/rig verification and testing. For example: If I implement a model or build an experimental rig and want to make sure I did it right, I'll go replicate some work to test it. If I successfully replicate I'm probably not going to spend time publishing that, because I built the rig/implemented to model to do my own research. If I'm unable to replicate, I'll first assume something is wrong with my rig/implementation. If I can rule that out (maybe by replicating something else) I might publish the new results on the stuff I couldn't replicate.

Consensus is built when a lot of publications agree on something, to the point where, if you aren't able to replicate it, you can feel quite positive it's because you're doing something wrong.

Basically: The idea of waiting for consensus before publishing can't work, because consensus is formed by a bunch of people publishing. Once solid consensus is established, you'll have a hard time getting a journal to accept an article further confirming the consensus.

[-] [email protected] 24 points 9 months ago

People have left some great comments here so to add: when the body gets something it needs nutrition-wise, it releases dopamine. We know this, that’s why we enjoy eating (pretty good biological functioning). However, there is diminishing returns on most things. The first steak you eat: delicious. Hell the first bite is the best. Every next bite, every consecutive steak, you get less and less dopamine release because your body recognizes it doesn’t need that nutrient as much. Drugs however (disregarding tolerance and dopamine fatigue because those work through different mechanisms) do not do this. There is no evening out or plateau on dopamine release for cocaine for instance. Sugar works the same way. No slowing or plateau. So in a very real and bio mechanical way, sugar is very analogous to drugs.

[-] [email protected] 23 points 9 months ago

I was able to quit cocaine, cigarettes, and alcohol and of those 3, cigarettes was the hardest to quit, with alcohol being a close second. I don't want to get into a discussion about the roles of behavioral addiction vs. chemical addiction when trying to quit something, but sugar has been just as difficult as alcohol and nicotine, if not more so. It doesn't help that it is seemingly everywhere and included in all the food. It's not as easy as "I'll just stop having ice cream", of course anyone can do that. If you start paying attention to all the foods sugar is added too and try to avoid those foods, you really have to completely rethink your whole approach to food (where to buy, the role it plays in your life, i.e. why you eat) and spend a lot more energy trying to find "healthy" foods.

[-] [email protected] 15 points 9 months ago

Avoiding gluten, dairy, or sugar really requires getting proficient at preparing all your meals from scratch. It's a good skillset to develop, but there's major hurdles. What are the chances that every single day you're going to have the time and energy to cook 2 meals from raw ingredients instead of grabbing a box/freezer meal or takeout? It's not a pure question of whether someone has the willpower to say no to a craving, they have to have the discipline to plan and prepare meals before they are hungry.

Absolute adherence to dietary restrictions is very difficult even when addiction isn't a major component.

[-] [email protected] 6 points 9 months ago

I measure my blood everyday. I measure my ketones. The number of times I've eaten " clean " food that had hidden carbohydrates in it, shocking.

Oh this sausage has no sugar, next day plenty of sugar.

Oh this vegetable soup has no starch in it, next day plenty of sugar.

Oh this omelette's keto, next day plenty of sugar.

When you're not preparing your own food, you have to trust the other party understands what no sugar actually means. At least where I live sugar gets added to everything, especially in restaurants, to make the food taste a little bit better.

I've compensated for this by boiling eggs for snacks, measuring my own blood so I know what restaurants are clean through empirical testing... And doing one meal a day. After the first couple weeks of keto, eating once a day wasn't a big deal, cuz the hunger cravings aren't there. So cooking one meal becomes less work, and it's easier to keep that one meal clean.

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[-] [email protected] 15 points 9 months ago

I've yet to see someone blowing people in a parking lot for caster sugar, so I can't see how it's as addictive as hard drugs.

[-] [email protected] 15 points 9 months ago

you dont see huge bags of cocaine on grocery store shelves either.

Make sugar as rare as coke and you will see way worse shit than some simple street head.

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[-] [email protected] 14 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Price...

If pure sugar/corn syrup cost the same as cocaine, then some people probably would.

If cocaine was legal, it would be cheap as fuck and comparable. Hell, it was legal once and relatively cheap, people weren't giving blowies for it back then. But it was still just as addictive

[-] [email protected] 12 points 9 months ago

I've seen people with diabetes unable to quit sugar even though it's killing them, and THAT sounds like hard drugs to me.

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[-] [email protected] 14 points 9 months ago

I think when people make those headlines they forget that sugar is essential to the human body. It's a nutrient. As far as I know you don't get a deficiency disorder if you don't use cocaine ever.

The problem is with the way our society is structured now: it's hard to not rely on processed foods with tons of sugar and salt because most people don't feel like they'd ever have to the time to prepare a healthy meal.

[-] [email protected] 13 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Sugar is not necessary for human existence. The body can synthesize sugar from fat in a process called gluconeogenesis in the liver. People can live 100% healthy lives without sugar or carbohydrates.

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[-] [email protected] 11 points 9 months ago

When I gave up drinking I developed an overwhelming craving for sugar because it, apparently, hits the same dopamine buttons. I, ultimately, found giving up booze easier than sugar because it's not socially acceptable to give those in recovery a bottle of wine as a present but people don't think twice about giving you some chocolate. I've had to be explicit about this now.

In some ways the ease of access and social accessibility are key - I had a chat with a couple of former heroin addicts about addiction and they found stopping smoking harder. You can quite the heroin lifestyle but (back before the smoking ban and the rise of vaping) it was very easy to have a few drinks, accept the offer of a cigarette and before you know it, you are working through a pack of 20.

Also, never underestimate Big Sugar, they will use all the dirty tricks Big Tobacco used to avoid bans in smoking, with similar disastrous consequences for our health.

[-] [email protected] 10 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

It depends on the person. For me, not really. I get mild cravings but they're easy to overcome.

What really helps is having something sweet that has no added sugars, like fruit or natural sweeteners like stevia or monk fruit or some-such. That way you can have the taste of sweet without all of the baggage.

I am pretty sure it's the taste of sweet that's addictive and not the actual sugar.

To answer your question, no, it is not and never will be as addictive as hard drugs.

[-] [email protected] 7 points 9 months ago

no added sugars, like fruit

An average apple, which is a fairly mild fruit, has 20 to 25 grams of sugar. There may be none added but it's still a ton of sugar. Try weighing out 25 grams of sugar to see what that looks like.

We also bred fruit to be sweeter than they were naturally, so there's that as well.

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[-] [email protected] 9 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Not only is it hard to kick the habit, it's incredibly hard just to avoid. For cocaine, in order to get a hit, you gotta call a dealer. For sugar, it's in so many foods that it's seriously hard to go sugar free, even if you never ate sugar before in your life.

[-] [email protected] 8 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

The Skeptics Guide to the Universe podcast did a segment on this recently, looked at a bunch of different studies and came to the conclusion that the scientific consensus is all over the place on the actual adictiveness of sugar and of processed foods in general, but that there are definitely some affects going on.

[-] [email protected] 7 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

I don't have much experience with cocaine or stimulants in general, but I have gone through the ringer of opioid addiction. I'm five years clean now thanks to Buprenorphine.

From that horrific experience, my gut feeling is that there is no possible way sugar is anywhere near as addictive as opioids. At least not for anyone predisposed to enjoying opioids, of course. Going through opioid withdrawal is a horror I will wish on very few people. It has broken me before, and it has broken some of the strongest people I've ever known. I have never felt an incredible urge to steal from my own family to satisfy a sweet tooth, that's for sure.

[-] [email protected] 7 points 9 months ago

I'll start with saying I have pretty mediocre willpower.

I can definitely understand saying you're "addicted" to sugar. I find it really hard to resist going for sugary treats, and it takes a substantial effort to make better snack choices.

But I can put some honey in my yogurt in the morning and not go on a sugary bender, so I feel like it can't be as bad as hard drugs.

[-] [email protected] 8 points 9 months ago

There's a difference between not adding sugar to your diet, and going no sugar. If you do keto for a week, you'll hit that sugar addiction wall hardcore.

[-] ryathal 6 points 9 months ago

There's a bit of social conditioning to it. If I put whiskey in my coffee every morning, people would be concerned, if I put a few pumps of syrup in I'm bougie. Sugar is a normalized addiction.

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[-] [email protected] 6 points 9 months ago

You are dosing sugar with every meal, and with most in between snacks.

You likely couldnt make it a week properly cutting sugar from your diet. Most cant.

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this post was submitted on 17 Oct 2023
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