Free and Open Source Software

My main problem with Apple is they really only care about what you've done for them lately.

They have a tendency to obsolete things and force devs to come along for the ride. They killed PowerPC, they killed flash and they're in the process of killing x86. I like when my applications continue to work.

I also wish they'd never inflicted smartphones upon the world, but I suppose that's a personal gripe.

While it’s true that Apple doesn’t contribute anything to being open there’s always a cost-benefit trade off. “Bad guys ™️” made chemo, but we still use it. If you’re such a big proponent of openness and you use Apple - donate some cash (as able) to an open source project. It doesn’t have to be all or none.

The FOSS and open ecosystem is a deep rabbit hole to jump down. Its an important one to be sure, but its also important to know that there is no really feasible way for lay folks to fully pass any sort of purity test without swapping to Linux, using a nonstandard mobile OS, etc. These are all achievable things to do, but they come with significant tradeoffs that require people to be very tech savvy.

I'd say it would be good to learn more about open source as an idea, and then take consistent, small measures to wean yourself out of the totally closed Apple ecosystem. But dont beat yourself up - the most important change is the one upstairs...IRL impacts will flow from that over time.

My view: I could not, even if it would safe my own life, explain my 69 year old luddite mother how to operate and navigate an Android smartphone, but I was able to teach her how to use an iPhone 7 Plus without much trouble. She's 73 now and scrolls Twitter and Instagram like the best of them. Replies on emails are still full of typing errors but hey we communicate just fine.

I tried explaining all of that to a friend and she said "well, you see, I like the a e s t h e t i c of Apple products, and then pulled out her iPhone which was covered in some kind of rubber condom making it impossible to see what the big deal was about the design.

I use a cheap Motorola with no protection at all and it has yet to break from being dropped on the floor several times. It looks like a rounded rectangle. So much for design.

I don't like Apple... refuse to elaborate further

I use Apple Watch, phone and iPad because they just work. For my computer, I use Linux. Don’t overthink it.

(Note that I'm not much of a tech wiz myself, so I only roughly understand the issue with the lack of privacy.)

When it comes to weighing the pros and cons between security versus convenience, it's hard for me to say that one tops the other. We live in a fast-paced world. At the same time, I hate the idea of people profiting off my data and trying to snoop. A lot of companies like Apple have an iffy reputation when it comes to data security, even though they say they protect your data and privacy. At the same time, many companies provide services which have become an integrated part in people's lives.

I have an Android because I love dabbling with FOSS apps. I never want to have a phone from Apple. However, I also have an iPad— and I'm planning on getting a MacBook. The iPad is good for taking notes and making digital art, while the MacBook helps me deal with industry standards in my future career field.

So for me, I'm not indifferent but... I guess a better way to word it is that I'm wary. On a day-to-day basis I prefer efficiency, but in the long-term I think it might bite me in the ass. Somehow. If it didn't already. (Probably did.)

These are probably more related than you think. I believe we were on track to work together in a global Open Science initiative until Bill Gates stepped up to bankroll most of the biggest initiatives under the agreement that the results were proprietary.

Apple historically was the first company to sue for software copyright infringement. As many other have posted in this thread, they haven't gotten better over time.

Apple is the worst... and they make it really hard to break out of their walled garden once you made the mistake to enter it. But don't throw away everything, just don't give them any additional money and try to somehow escape from that prison over time. But it will be hard as Apple intentionally breaks interoperability with things that are not Apple.

Apple is just about the worst offender out there in terms of desire to maintain a closed ecosystem.

• They only adopt open hardware standards when forced to by law

• They scrupulously enforce price controls on their resellers, ensuring that you can't usually purchase prior generations at a discount

• They intentionally degrade performance on older generations of devices through malicious software updates to force users to upgrade

• They aggressively combat open source and cross platform integration. E.g., Apple TV can't be cast to a Google device, etc.

Having languished for years hoping for new updates of android and being hampered by carriers or phone makers, I greatly enjoy the long term support apple gives to its devices.

On then computer front I’m a huge fan of Linux distros. If I could I’d move on from windows.

Just had a lunch conversation today as well and a colleagues iPhone got stolen. I mentioned how the problem of being able to do everything on the phone makes it a single point of failure (back in the day I needed internet cafés to login into my brokerage account to sell off some stock. Now I just do it with my phone.). We discussed a bit more how he was stuck and frustrated as all things are done with the phone now (Uber, 2-factor authentication etc.).

But, it was an iPhone, so Apple allowed him to completely shut down and erase his old phone together with all payment info and all other personal info. And then just enter his Apple ID on his new phone (paid by the insurance) and he was back in the game.

If I had my Fairphone stolen, I'd have to somehow recover some parts of my data from my personal backup and the installation process of any new device would take some time. Also, who knows what the thief could've done with my phone?

So yeah, I'm completely opposed to my device being controlled by a corporation to the point they can lock, erase and move all data (including app data) somewhere else, but I do see the advantages.

You touched upon quite a few interesting topics, so I’ll try to summarize a few things quickly (i.e. prepare for a wall of text).

Generally speaking, citizens of various countries around the world pay taxes, and some of that money gets turned into science. Theoretically, those papers should be accessible to all the citizens because they paid for the experiments to be made and the papers written.

However, the story doesn’t end there! Usually, those papers go through a bizarre system where the scientist pays for them to be published in a journal and then the readers also need to pay to read them. IMO this part of the system is very broken, and open access seems like a way to fix it.

If you feel like it’s all just a big scam, then using sci-hub doesn’t really have any ethical problems. If you feel like the system is contributing something important, then paying for it shouldn’t be a problem either. I’m open to both interpretations, but I’m also reading from sci-hub, so I’m not entirely neutral.

I wonder if you friend would argue that scientific journals are a scam and Apple is also scamming people in a way. If that’s the case, it’s a social justice thing, isn’t it?

It’s true that Apple is pretty bad when it comes to right to repair or FOSS. If you believe that more things should be FOSS, then you probably would be using Android products instead. However, that world comes with a long list of problems too, such as privacy, but that’s a story for another wall of text.

However, as far as the philosophy of open source is concerned, Android is slightly better than iOS. If you’re all about supporting open access and open source, it would make a lot of sense to use Android and avoid all Apple products.

Obviously there are other ways to look at this subject. Personally, I would love to use a 100% FOSS electronics, and as far as laptops are concerned, you can go pretty far in that direction. Mobile devices are a very different story though, but that’s a story for yet another wall of text.

I don't use Apple products myself, although I do have an old iPad. My main issue with them isn't a moral one though, it's that Apple seem to design their products to work as slickly as possible with their own ecosystem to the detriment of everything else.

If you use an iPhone, an iPad, an Apple Watch and a Mac then you're probably enjoying a great user experience. If you want to use an Apple device with anything else you're probably in for some amount of pain. I'm not against them, but they're not for me.

I do try and use FOSS software where I can, not least Lemmy and Mastodon, but my main devices are a Windows PC along with an Android phone and tablet. Windows is obviously closed source, and while Android itself is open source you can't say the same for all the vital Google stuff on top. I have a plan to get my hands on a high specced Raspberry Pi when they're finally back in stock and use it as my main home desktop for light use. If I had a laptop of my own I'd definitely be running Linux on it too.

I think everyone should absolutely look into FOSS hardware and software, although in reality I doubt most people would care. If anything it's just the "free" part they care about, but there's obviously a huge benefit in software and hardware being free for others to build on, fork and improve. I'd love nothing more than seeing everything work on this principle, but that's sadly not the world we live in.

I use windows, Apple products and Linux. I prefer FOSS products and will go out of my way to use Ubuntu or arch on my desktop and laptops (going on 15 years) even if it’s harder to get working in certain situations (e.g., gaming). I have to use windows at work. I use apple products (iPhone, iPad, headphones, watch) for the same reasons OP stated, they just work. I need a reliable phone and don’t trust google or the other android manufactures so I see apple as the lesser evil.

Use whatever is best for your situation.

I used to be the Samsung SME (subject matter expert) at my AT&T store. I was the only one in the store who used Samsung, and I defended them to the death. I left AT&T, got a job at Apple, and decided to make the switch.

I fell in love. I have the Pro Max 13, Apple Watch, Apple TV, and AirTags. You're spot on; I absolutely love the ecosystem. As cliche as it is to say, everything just works. Samsung is good. Apple is good. People have legitimate reasons for using either.

I'm a software engineer who uses a lot of open source software and I use Apple devices whenever possible. Electronic devices cost a lot of money, so I want my money to count. With that said, every Apple device I've owned has lasted me for a very long time and are still working today; The longest one being a 2012 Macbook Air which is still alive and kicking today after 2 battery replacements.

Every iPhone I've ever owned have received major iOS updates for 5-6 years. Meanwhile, every Android flagship phone (which costs similarly to the latest and greatest iPhones) I've owned have stopped getting major Android updates after 2-3 years. People criticize Apple for planned obsolescence, but other brands have it worse.

Even if you do listen to your friend's advice and decide to go for another brand, which one actually advocates for the ideals your friend has shared with you? The direct alternatives to Apple products aren't better in any philosophical way. The ones that do either offer a completely difference experience or an inferior product.

Don't feel bad about what your friend is saying. He doesn't pay for your stuff.

I'm an Apple user, and have been since 2007 when I bought my first MacBook. I have an iPhone, a Watch, a bunch of Macs, and Apple TV. I have an iPad too, but the screen's broken, I can't afford to repair it, and honestly, I don't really have much use for an iPad these days.

While I like how much these devices sync with each other, and I love how well they're built, with every year that passes it sits less well with me how, if you can't afford the latest and greatest, you'll experience some level of OS-rot.

I mean, my iPad is new enough to support iPadOS 16, but too old to support Stage Manager. That I'm not really bothered by, but it's indicative of a problem. If the device is capable of running an OS, it should get all of the OS that its hardware will allow. Even more fundamentally though, say iOS 17 has some new additions to Notes.app that will also work in Sonoma, but your Mac isn't recent enough to go beyond Monterey; does that mean you can't view notes made on your iPhone on your Mac?

And yeah, that doesn't sit right with me.

I don't like any of the big tech companies at all, Apple included. I think they all have way too much power. I don't trust the 'cloud' either - you don't truly own your data/media unless you have a local, DRM-free copy.

I have an iPhone, use a MacBook for work (only options are windows and Mac), but use Linux at home. I was an android user years ago, but one of the things that pushed me away is google treating android users as a data source. There were ‘bugs’ which caused the google services to run constantly in the background. In my opinion, Apple cares about users privacy lot more than google does. Use whatever tool suits you best.

The only Apple thing I ever enjoyed using was a ][e.

Trying to put myself out there instead of rotting in the background like I did on reddit.

I think for the most part it's fine to use Apple products, because they're very nice products! Yes they're expensive, yes they're for the most part the opposite of what FOSS stands for etc etc etc. But what's the other option, Samsung? Google Pixel? They might not have the walled garden thing going on, but they're still running non-open software (based on Android but with changes such as Google services etc.). Yes you could use some random Ubuntu Touch phone or install GrapheneOS on a Google Pixel maybe, but the important thing here is that now you are thinking about these things in a bigger way, from just the medical field to learning, studying, about the idea of FOSS.

Because you're thinking about it, later on when you need to make decisions you'll have some understanding of the value of FOSS, and might try out something as opposed to continuing to go with Apple products.

It also depends on other things you value. Do you value privacy? Do you trust Apple when they say they keep your data safe? Do you trust Apple to even look at your data at all? I don't know much, but I know that Apple uses telemetry in their phones to collect your and does who knows what with it.

So as always, it's a trade off: Go with Apple/samsung/google and get their cool, sleek products that work seamlessly together, but have your data taken in order for them to profit off you, have no understanding of what else they they are doing with your usage data or the inner workings of software that you spend a significant portion of your life using

I think your colleague used an excellent example. Just like COVID vaccination Patente can be considered not good for public interests, the same applies for the FOSS mentality regarding Apple ecosystem.

While I can understand, that Apple products interface very well with each other, it's also true, that it's not hard to get these things working without a walled garden. Just like ActivityPub is an essential standard for Lemmy/Kbin.social and the Fediverse as a whole, there are also standards for all kinds of connections between devices.

The problem is, that corporations like Microsoft and Apple can earn more by making it walled so that people have to decide between compatibility and comfort. Unfortunately, such a dichotomy is false and completely artificial. It only exists solely to optimise the profits of Apple.

I personally have never used an Apple product. When I see the price tag and what I get for it - and see, that I'm put into a small safety box, I don't feel attracted to it. I want things to be simple and under my control. I hate using windows as I feel, how less it's under my control. It's true, that some things like Cortana (Desktop AI on windows) aren't available on Linux, but for now I can well live without it.

At the same time, I also believe in FOSS and also think that it's huge, that anyone in the world can get s flexible versatile OS simply with an internet connection.

I may also be biased, as I'm a software engineer.

Really jumped in the deep end with your research, huh? :)

I guess a good place to start would be deciding what actually bothers you. Megacorp sucks because of [shitty capitalism, shady labor practices, locking down devices, privacy, insert other complaint]. Weigh those against the benefits you get.

My biggest concern is generally privacy and monetization of my data, but I still use an iPhone because my family wouldn’t get off my case about ease of sharing photos, videos. So I only have the iPhone. Don’t buy anything else from them. I turn off as much tracking and data collection as possible. I only have two outward-facing files in iCloud — my encrypted password keeper so that I can access it both from phones and mobile, and an encrypted file vault that can only be opened if you first get into the password keeper.

FWIW on the FOSS side, I still use Linux. I used to use GrapheneOS on a Pixel 5a that worked otherwise well.

I like to tinker. I don't buy apple products. I get that most people want a device that just works when they pick it up and integrates with the rest of their devices. Apple does this really well.

While I personally agree with your colleague, one must consider one's use case and the amount of time and effort it will take to replicate the things you like about the apple UX and ecosystem and make a judgement call. I have a Windows desktop, a Linux server, an Android phone and tablet and I spend a fair amount of time seeing them up and keeping them talking to one another to share data, but even then I can't get them to share settings simply like do not disturb.

Apple has innovated on the user experience to the point where if I pick up an iphone I can't navigate around it because it relies on a soft touch, "intuitive", gestural interface. And therefore it's easy for me to shun apple products on principle. The real hard work is migrating off the platform you know. And for people that were raised in the apple touch ecosystem, I don't realistically see many of them ever leaving.

I've been an Apple user now for several years now and I get why someone would choose an Apple product, disregarding their monopolous philosophy. Every device is extremely well made with attention to detail, feels almost worth the money you're paying for. The software is adjusted for every device, on iPad you (most of the time) get software that utilizes the space and not just upscaled mobile software. I'm sure that goes for Android now too, but at least it didn't when I switched. The "ecosystem" works incredibly well, everything can be sychronized and my AirPods connect instantly.

However since I've started going to university my mindset has changed. Now I value repairability over being "Apple chique", I've started becoming more and more attached to the open source philosophy (not only concerning software) and frankly, I don't feel a need for Apple anymore so the drawbacks started weighing heavier. I swapped my MacBook for a ThinkPad running Linux. I don't care about the cloud anymore either - I'm much more happy with having my own, decentralised, cloud. I also feel like I want some change. Apple has become boring to me - but that is a personal taste.

In wise words of Commander Data: "I realized, it is the struggle itself that is most important. We must strive to be more than we are, Lal. It does not matter that we will never reach our ultimate goal. The effort yelds its own rewards"

You now understand the importance of free software just like you already knew the importance of free knowledge. You don't need to force yourself into shapes you don't fit, but you can help move us all into a better future for everybody.