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Blåhaj Lemmy is a Lemmy instance attached to blahaj.zone. This is a group for questions or discussions relevant to either instance.

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Neopronouns are not trolling (lemmy.blahaj.zone)
submitted 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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I've been waiting until after Christmas day to make this post, but some of our communities recently have had a lot of noise and upset over someone that uses neopronouns that most people are unfamiliar with.

So I want to make this clear. A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you're unfamiliar with. It's true even if you think someone is trolling. Pronouns are not rewards for good behaviour. They aren't only to be respected when you like the person you're interacting with, or if their pronouns "make sense" to you. Trolls, spammers, twitter users, it doesn't matter who they are, your options are to respect their pronouns, or to not engage with them.

I really want to re-iterate the importance of this. Gender diverse folk are undermined, invalidated and questioned at every step of our lives. As a community, we need to be working to undo that, not creating more of it, and that means there is no space for treating pronouns (including neopronouns) as a reward for good behaviour.

This isn't a free reign for trolls and spammers. The rules still apply. Trolling, spamming, etc will continue to be dealt with, but it's not an excuse to act as if respecting someones pronouns is optional.

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[–] TriflingToad 7 points 8 hours ago (2 children)

Very good post, I agree with everything said.

However I have a followup issue, I use Voyager primarily for Lemmy. I don't have any way to see bios (to my knowledge) in the app, so therefore I cannot see pronouns unless they are in someone's username. I have one of the "user tags" set up for drag specifically and will for any other neopronouns needed, but that requires someone correcting me before I can create it.
My question is, is there a way that this issue can be overcome? Id prefer to not move apps if it's possible as i like Voyagers UI but I will if I must.

Also, this is not really related, but do you happen to have a post or explanation you can link to about some drama between the shit-just-works instance and Blahaj? I heard that there was some drama but I can't figure out anything other than the NCD@SJW community mod having beef with blahaj, but not anything between the SJW instance itself.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 7 hours ago

The rule isn't "Get peoples pronouns correct 100% of the time, never make mistakes, or get banned". It's "Respect peoples pronouns"

You're allowed to make mistakes. You're allowed to not know. What you're not allowed to do is invalidate and erase the pronouns of people who have made them clear.

but do you happen to have a post or explanation you can link to about some drama between the shit-just-works instance and Blahaj

It's news to me!

[–] allo 10 points 12 hours ago

Thank you. it is mindboggling that supposed trans allies can tell people they aren't valid without seeing their hypocrisy.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 12 hours ago) (1 children)

i bite my thumb at anyone who complains about drag. the most drag has ever done is correct people and VERY OCCASIONALLY call out when someone is actively belligerent about it.

reckon how folks treat our dearest dragonfucker is pretty good insight into how they’d react to myriad other similar social situations. this heavily contributes to why i have very little patience for folks “just asking (bad faith) questions” about it.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 hours ago

I don't get why so many people seem to be so pressed about drag. Like dawg, just ignore and move on. Like I have drag filtered or blocked or whatever you call it entirely because I just don't vibe with a fair bit of the content that's come across my feed from drag. Absolutely shine on you crazy diamond. It just ain't for me.

My personal feelings on neopronouns are irrelevant. I'm just gonna try to refer to people how they ask me to.

[–] [email protected] 28 points 15 hours ago (3 children)

I've spent what feels like half an hour scrolling through comment threads to figure out what the hell happened to lead to this. Is there some kind of explainer somewhere? Is there a key thread that I missed somehow? Should I even be asking?

[–] [email protected] 18 points 11 hours ago

A user called drag can sometimes rub people the wrong way. Sometimes it's drag's actions. Sometimes it's the fact drag refers to dragself with pronouns using various permutations of drag.

The former is a valid reason for contention. The latter isn't.

[–] [email protected] 45 points 14 hours ago (12 children)

There's a user called dragonfucker whose gender is apparently "dragonfucker", who insists on the neopronoun "drag", and who eagerly takes offense whenever misgendered, whether the misgendering was intentional or not. Some people understandably believe this user is a troll.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 11 hours ago

Drag Rider, actually, not dragonfucker. And drag isn't mad that you misremembered.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 8 hours ago

I haven't seen them take offense very often

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

This is more of a public service announcement style of post than a deeply intentioned 'after incident response' post.

While I'm sure there have been plenty of incidents based on some of the other comments, there hasn't been some singular massive event to cause this to happen. If anything it's more of a reminder that one purpose of blahaj.zone is for inclusivity and acceptance. Excluding people because of some indirect words is not the goal.

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[–] [email protected] 42 points 18 hours ago

i don't get why its so hard for people to use the block function and move on, i was sick of hearing about dragonfucker the second i saw dragonfucker crying victim in every thread on my feed. other comments have outlined my feelings on neopronouns so i wont get knto that

it felt trolly and disingenuous the way that dragonfucker was going about it, so i used the block function because it was exhausting to look at. shouldn't be more complicated than that

[–] [email protected] 38 points 18 hours ago (2 children)

I don't care for neopronouns, but it also doesn't matter what I think. If it's REALLY a problem for me, like that person who's gender identity is divinity and the pronouns that person uses are capitalized, I just won't refer to that person. (Seriously, that does bother me, not that person's gender in general but referring to anyone, fictional or not, Like This.)

[–] [email protected] 17 points 13 hours ago

I see that case as an anomalous one because the tension I personally have there is: a person may be a god, but that doesn't make that person my god, and I shouldn't be required to behave worshipfully towards a god I don't follow. I may choose to follow other religions' conventions around how they refer to their gods and/or prophets in some contexts, but the idea of not having a choice in matters of religion makes me deeply uncomfortable. Respect between equals, which is what using a person's pronouns generally is, should be automatic, but deference to authority should be earned in my book.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

Your last point raises a good question.

Mods, if someone says Their pronouns are supposed to be capitalised, will we be called for it if we don't capitalise Them?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago)

Me omw to make all of my pronouns the full transcript of the Bee Movie

Actually, would that be covered under this rule? Like I would be trolling if I did that, but under a true all-acceptance policy you couldn't selectively not use those pronouns

[–] [email protected] 25 points 18 hours ago (2 children)

Your intentions are valiant. Can I ask for clarification with one section to ensure I don’t error within this instance’s rules?

A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you’re unfamiliar with. It’s true even if you think someone is trolling.

We’ve probably all seen the “one joke” of transphobes/nonbinaryphobes attempting a parody of preferred pronouns/neopronouns by choosing arbitrary or intentionally harmful terms. This link contains some examples of what I’m referring to:

Content warning: transphobia/nonbinaryphobia/misgendering, annoying visual glitch

In cases like these in which all contextual signs point to a person being disingenuous about what their pronouns are, are we the users still expected to speak as if that person is genuine and to use the pronouns they list until they state otherwise? As an example from the linked video, if I refer to Ted Cruz on this instance, must I use the neopronouns kiss/my/ass to be within the rules? (assuming Ted Cruz had yet to state a revision of pronouns)

In a more extreme case, let’s say somebody named User1 genuinely uses [neopronoun 1]/[neopronoun 2]/[neopronoun 3], which we understand to be totally fine. If a troll account named User2 joined this instance with undisclosed malicious intent and stated that their pronouns were [neopronoun 1 isn’t real]/[neopronoun 2 isn’t real]/[neopronoun 3 isn’t real], should the users/admins/mods each take that all on face value and refer to User2 with [neopronoun 1 isn’t real]/[neopronoun 2 isn’t real]/[neopronoun 3 isn’t real]?

In short, do the rules require that we refer to someone by the neopronouns that they state even if the surrounding context strongly suggests that they are a transphobic/nonbinaryphobic troll and that their statement of their pronouns is disingenuous and intended to be a harmful ridicule to transgender and nonbinary people?

When I see that somebody uses neopronouns and they appear to be in earnest, I respect and adhere to that and I appreciate that you do too. I do worry that there may arise some trolls who misuse our benevolent intentions and who attempt to mock and insult us by taking advantage of generous good faith and ultimately make things worse for all of us. Thanks for taking the time to address this and watching out for everybody.

[–] [email protected] 30 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

You don't need to use any pronouns to block and report.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 15 hours ago

Exactly this

[–] [email protected] 14 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

In cases like these in which all contextual signs point to a person being disingenuous about what their pronouns are, are we the users still expected to speak as if that person is genuine and to use the pronouns they list until they state otherwise?

If that person is trolling, then report their behaviour, not their pronouns. The contextual behaviour you refer to is the real issue, and what will get them banned. And don't interact with them in the mean time. If their goal is invalidating the idea of neopronouns, the correct response isn't for you to invalidate the use of neopronouns as a result of their actions.

But even "attack helicopter" and the like... If you're not familiar with it, look up the story of Isabel Fall. She was almost driven to suicide, she changed her name, and may even have detransitioned as a result of the fallout she received from a story she wrote about the attack helicopter pronouns. Her intentions were good, it was an honest act of reclamation, but people were so upset at the mere idea of her story, that her own community turned on her. Her story looked like the story a troll might have written. But critically, it wasn't a story written by a troll, it was a story written by a trans person trying to find power in a slur that had been levelled against her community.

So until I can sense peoples intentions with unerring accuracy, the only thing we can act on is actions. And using neopronouns, even unusual and challenging ones, isn't a trolling action by itself. If someone with challenging neopronouns is trolling, their actions will make that clear, independent of their pronouns.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago) (2 children)

The contextual behaviour you refer to is the real issue, and what will get them banned. If someone with challenging neopronouns is trolling, their actions will make that clear, independent of their pronouns.

Here are 3 users’ comments just on this post concerning the contextual behavior of a specific user whom I presume to be the impetus of this whole discussion. I obviously cannot source other comments that may have been deleted or removed:

“it felt trolly and disingenuous the way that dragonfucker was going about it”

“My only concern is that people (or one person in particular) aren’t genuine, but are doing to to discredit trans people, and the concept of gender fluidity in general… I’ve read some of their comments that set off some red flags for me that maybe this person isn’t being genuine.” Continued “(also some other red flags like about how there is clearly some sort of kink aspect to this for them and their dragon partner), and gets people banned for questioning it.”

“The reason people say these one or two users are trolling is not because of their pronouns. It’s because they demand accommodations that go well beyond pronouns and most of their posts are playing the victim.”

And here are 10 modlog remarks by your instance’s mods pertaining to the contextual behavior of the same user. There are additional modlog remarks by mods of other instances to similar effect. Please do take a look through them all:

2x: Banned: reason: Trolling

Banned: reason: history of misgendering and encouraging suicide

4x Banned: reason: Encouraging suicide, bad faith accusations, moderator harassment. Not Appealable

Banned: reason: encouraging suicide

Banned: reason: History of encouraging suicide

Removed Comment: reason: Advocating violence, encouraging suicide

Many users and mods alike believe that the user’s actions have made it clear that they are trolling and intend harm upon the community, yet they remain unbanned (edit: clarification: unbanned from the instance). As admin, have you scrutinized your users’ and mods’ listed concerns over this apparent repeat offender prior to now? Does the admin team have a direct line for users to report bad actor users and their actions? I do not expect you to “sense peoples intentions with unerring accuracy”, but do you distrust the acuity of your userbase and modteams over and over again? If the user is a troll, you are doing exactly what they want you to do; if the user is not a troll, many people have taken measures to avoid hostility from them. Even if this user were genuine with their gender expression/identity/etc., is the rest of their behavior acceptable and undeserving of an instance ban?

You will get trolls on this instance. You will get trolls anywhere online. It’s naïve to assume genuineness as the default online; don’t wait for a troll to break character. If you want this instance to be hospitable and to live up to the protectiveness, the anti-bigotry, the empathy, and the inclusion that it prides itself on, the instance needs admins who take less iffiness to guess when a user is trying to take them for a ride.

I had already blocked this user who knows how long ago. Their behavior doesn’t affect me anymore. I’m also not part of a demographic that needs this instance. Go ahead and ban me for speaking out for those who do need this instance. But this user —and any other users whom the admin team shies away from calling trolls— they will affect the new people who come to this instance who do need a safe place, and those new users will be deterred from here by the hostility and unfettered trolls that are tolerated.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

Here are 3 users’ comments just on this post concerning the contextual behavior of a specific user whom I presume to be the impetus of this whole discussion.

None of that is "contextual behaviour". It's literally just people upset by pronouns they find discomforting. Once you remove "Using pronouns I don't like" as a reason, there is nothing else to those posts.

Many users and mods alike believe that the user’s actions have made it clear that they are trolling and intend harm upon the community, yet they remain unbanned.

Drag was banned from 196 by community mods

Does the admin team have a direct line for users to report bad actor users and their actions?

We have reports, a matrix channel and DMs.

Even if this user were genuine with their gender expression/identity/etc., is the rest of their behavior acceptable and undeserving of an instance ban?

I haven't seen evidence of other bad behaviour that warrants an instance ban. Drag has stirred up drama, deliberately so, and has received community bans as a result, and I support the rights of the community mods to make that choice. But I've seen no evidence of genuine attempts to encourage others to suicide, or ongoing deliberate misgendering, or anything else that warrants an instance ban. I've seen many accusations of such, but I've not seen any evidence behind the accusations.

If I'm missing some, please drop me a DM or the like.

It’s naïve to assume genuineness as the default online; don’t wait for a troll to break character. If you want this instance to be hospitable and to live up to the protectiveness, the anti-bigotry, the empathy, and the inclusion that it prides itself on, the instance needs admins who take less iffiness to guess when a user is trying to take them for a ride.

A queer instance that gatekeeps queer folk isn't hospitable, protective or empathic.

I am well aware that trolls can slip through and try and stir up drama. I believe that it's worth the risk, because the cost of gatekeeping gender diverse folks self expression isn't a price I'm willing to pay to be troll free. I'd rather the odd troll slip through the cracks and get dealt with than default to gatekeeping.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

None of that is "contextual behaviour". It's literally just people upset by pronouns they find discomforting. Once you remove "Using pronouns I don't like" as a reason, there is nothing else to those posts.

No. Your paragraph is wholly false and you are making these claims in bad faith. I cannot read you the user comments and spell out their meanings. You act with a prejudice that people can only take umbrage with this user because they use neopronouns and you willfully and selectively reject any claims of impropriety that the user may have committed elsewhere.

yet they remain unbanned.

Drag was banned from 196 by community mods

I meant from unbanned from the instance. I’ve edited my comment for clarity.

I’ve seen no evidence of genuine attempts to encourage others to suicide, or ongoing deliberate misgendering, or anything else that warrants an instance ban. I’ve seen many accusations of such, but I’ve not seen any evidence behind the accusations.

So those are instance bannable offenses? Is there a full list beyond just in the instance sidebar? Here are some removed comments from the modlog by the user:

Advocating for suicide/murder: “If you're planning on killing yourself, go buy a gun and take a red hat with you. Drag is serious.”

Explicitly advocating for murder/violence: “Buy a gun. Shoot a red hat. Violence is the answer.”

After cyberstalking and harassing a lemmy.world mod to disrespect the mod’s daughter’s pronouns: “You previously said that you always use gender neutral pronouns to refer to other people. In order to help you with that goal, drag would like to point out that you just used a "she" pronoun, so that you can edit it to a "they" and maintain the standard you set for yourself.“

Racism: “Drag thinks Germans just like genocide in general.”

Advocating for bestiality: “Drag likes dragon dick and doesn't have a problem with anybody who does. That's clearly some kind of non-dragon-fucking person. Whoever they are, they suck. Love is love and loving dragons is okay. Drag doesn't have a problem with sucking any kind of cock, as long as it's consensual.”

Some mods also believe this user to be a new account by a troll named droneright. I’m not going to link to every comment and post that still stands that points to the gestalt of the troll’s deception. It’s not gatekeeping to scrutinize somebody’s actions and determine that they are spitting in your face and telling you that it’s raining.

You are being trolled. The user has carefully curated elements of absurdity and inanity separate from a gender identity/expression with the intent to form a mocking caricature of queer and queer-inclusive people and to ruin their safe spaces. Read the comments and read between the lines elsewhere. A server admin needs to have the reading literacy and internet literacy to see this miles before it has gotten to this point.

I’d rather the odd troll slip through the cracks and get dealt with than default to gatekeeping.

You will find your instance overrun with trolls that make the experience intolerable. Other instances will defederate from your instance to avoid the abundance of trolls that you will host. The people who need an inclusive community will lose it.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

You act with a prejudice that people can only take umbrage with this user because they use neopronouns and you willfully and selectively reject any claims of impropriety that the user may have committed elsewhere.

I have explicitly acknowledged drag deliberately created drama in 196, was banned by the 196 mods, and I support the mods right to make such bans.

What I've said is that I haven't seen evidence of anything warranting an entire instance ban. I've seen people talk about it a lot, but I've not actually seen the evidence myself, and given the ire that drag has stirred up in people, I'm going to need to see it before I act on it.

Other instances will defederate from your instance to avoid the abundance of trolls that you will host.

drag is not based on blahaj zone...

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 hour ago

I've not actually seen the evidence myself

That’s why I said to read through the user’s history and critically consider why the profile expresses the particular things it expresses. Look at the gestalt, not just individual incidences.

drag is not based on blahaj zone...

I know. But other trolls can copy this behavior and infiltrate safe spaces by being hosted on your instance.

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