this post was submitted on 16 Aug 2023
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Amazon Replacement? (self.fediverse)
submitted 1 year ago by LazerDickMcCheese to c/[email protected]
25 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

Is it possible to one day replace the privacy nightmare of Amazon with a decentralized merchant network? All I really use Amazon for these day is aggregate customer reviews by query, then buy the items as direct as possible. Why can't respectable tools to this instead? I understand the cost, but could the tech be adopted?

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[–] [email protected] 29 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I'm not entirely sure you'd want that, tbh.

Think about how logistics work, and how fuel has to be spent. You don't want a decentralized network for physical goods. That's extremely inefficient and wasteful.

Even if it's just about the final point of sale... we kinda already have these aggregations of individual merchant stalls? We call them "malls" mostly, nowadays, or "markets", depending on type. They exist, but keep in mind that a lot of stuff is centralized behind the scenes, be it maintenance, logistics or chains.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

There are malls, markets, things like that. These are just the front end for the customers to buy things, the retailer.

As you said there are centralisation behind. Either through the same company managing all those different malls, or through Wholesalers working in the background selling to a lot of retailers.

[–] Anafroj 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Totally agree, what we really need is a "Uber Eats/Deliveroo for everything", leveraging local businesses. And if we can get a decentralized reputation system, then such platform can be decentralized as well.

[–] LazerDickMcCheese 1 points 1 year ago

Right! I was thinking that with an infinitely scaling model without a single point of failure

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I like this idea so much. The problem is quality control.

Uber Eats here in UK really struggles to delivery an accurate order. And where there is a problem the driver blames the restaurant, the restaurant blames the driver, and Uber or the restaurant (it's frequently not clear where to begin) may or may not issue a refund and perhaps an apology, but that doesn't solve the problem which is you don't have the food you were promised and that you paid for. No one takes responsibility for that.

Who in a decentralised system can or should take responsibility?

Amazon, for all their many faults, claim to be trying to make the most customer-centric company on earth. A lot of their early success came from a stellar returns policy, shouldering responsibility for products they dispatched, as well as excellent prices. Not so much now, but certainly during their incredible retail growth period.

How do you code for that in a federated system? And, if you can, how do you compete in a wider marketplace with an Amazon monolith?

[–] Anafroj 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Who in a decentralised system can or should take responsibility?

The customers. :) Ear me out:

The main reason why there is so much problems with deliveries (way more with UPS, DHL and the likes than Uber Eats deliverers, in my own experience) is because we're not their customers, in their heads. They're paid by the merchants (UPS/DHL/etc are paid by your shop keeper), or they're paid by the platform (rider is paid Uber Eats/Deliveroo/etc), but the end customer is just part of the constraints, for them, especially since the customer doesn't even choose who will deliver their package (you don't like UPS? Too bad!). Give the customer that choice, and make them pay directly for the delivery to the deliverer, and I guarantee all those problems will go away. This is why I said we need a decentralized reputation system : so that the customer can see the reputation of local delivery service before selecting them.

When the problem is with the shop, well, this is already sort of dealt with. We already have reviews systems and we already select our shops, so it does happen that shops behave poorly, but not for long. Although, users have to be educated about verifying reviews, and developers have to implement countermeasures and stay on top of the review cheating game.

And to avoid problems with the platform, we have the interoperability of standards like ActivityPub : there is one global network (like the fediverse, or the web), and multiple programs are implemented to use it. They have a incentive to work well because there is competition, something that centralized platforms eliminate altogether.

[–] LazerDickMcCheese 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I apologize for not being more specific, I'm not interested in a centralized delivery system. I just want vendors to have their inventories posted online (as usual), but for them to be aggregated by category and filterable in one location without depending on a dystopian tech company. MAYBE have a frontend to appear as though everything is centralized, but I would be indifferent

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Aaaah, okay. I keep thinking I heard of exactly this in the German city of Hamburg before, or even the entire area. But I can't find anything about it right now. But I'm sure I had heard of this. There was like this meta-shopping-system, and then the orders were fulfilled by each company individually, they just pooled their catalogues basically.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I don't see that happening. I think the problem is not even technical - ActivityPub could absolutely serve the purpose. My pessimism comes from the incredible potential for spam and just shit products. Take current amazon - it's full of rubbish from aliexpress. Now increase that by a few orders of magnitude, since every merchant could just spin up their own shopfront with no supervision.

[–] Anafroj 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Indeed, there needs to be third parties who control quality - just like there are moderators here, if you think about it. We already sort of have those moderators : local shop keepers. I'd be satisfied with a service that allows me to leverage all those local shops without having to leave my place (as I mentioned in an other comment on this page : "Uber Eats/Deliveroo for everything").

[–] mythic_tartan 5 points 1 year ago

I think the decentralized but moderated review network is the most important part. I like the idea of local shop keepers with specialized knowledge (I’m thinking of my local goto kitchen store) or just online experts (like the folks at whathifi). I like to research a bit (a lot really) before I decide what to buy and a resource like this would be invaluable. Finding it locally after deciding what to buy can be an issue (especially if you are not in the US), but this aspect could be separate, as is shipping.

[–] LazerDickMcCheese 1 points 1 year ago

Damn, that's a good point. I have no technical coding experience or knowledge (so no one should take what I'm about to say seriously), but I was picturing a lot of scripting pulling information across the web from selected vendors. Maybe that could prevent something like that? Or maybe I'm just making myself sound naive and stupid?

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago

Decentralized online market is just going to the manufacturer/vendor website and buying it from them directly.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don't know about "decentralized" as centralization is a driving influence in cost of marketing. Amazon is efficient because of every step of the way is centralized, from store front to the warehousing to the shipping. Sure there are some products that don't ship by Amazon, but they're usually at a cost disadvantage unless they're unique. Plus payment processing is centralized and allows for consumer protections which wouldn't be possible with something like crypto.

Amazon could be dethroned, but it would require very specific circumstances and unlikely wouldn't be by a privacy minded entity.

Amazon is cheap because personal data subsidizes a lot. If they couldn't sell targeted sponsor ads to you, they'd make that revenue up elsewhere.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Amazon is as you said extremely efficient on their warehouse and shipping because of their centralization and size. They can build extremely expensive warehouse to keep being efficient and surpass the competition.

There would maybe be possible to get an "enhanced" activity pub in order to protect privacy and financial informations. There is already something similar but without activity pub : a multitude of website where it is possible to buy things.

But there still needs to be some centralization, either through the postal service for small companies, or through centralised warehouse companies, with spzcialized equipments. And both of these things are already in place.

However if the OP wants a decentralized Amazon like efficiency, it won't happen. The costs will increase and it will take more time, because the way the shipment will work will heavily depend on the seller.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

Using amazon for it's reviews? Isn't that one of the least trustworthy aspects of amazon?

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Have a look at particl.io

[–] LazerDickMcCheese 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I haven't installed it yet, but that sounds exactly like what I had in mind. Is it limited by which companies have adopted it?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

The developers have made it clear that they want to have a robust, sophisticated and scalable ecosystem before they do any advertising. The project is therefore mostly known only in cypherpunk and niche privacy communities, and so are the things that are sold on the public marketplace.

However, all the tools and automations to run an efficient online commerce already exist. For example, there is a connection to WooCommerce and scripts that facilitate the listing of items.

So from the technical side, practically everything is already available in the marketplace. What is missing is a web integration which is urgently needed for a broader adoption and easier possibilities to buy PART the native currency. The developers are currently working on the latter by developing Basicswapdex.com.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Bookshop.org is an attempt to provide an alternative to Amazon as a bookseller by using a network of independent book stores. It's not decentralized technologically or anything like that; it's just a website that bookshops can affiliate with. But it does represent a model to build an alternative that other industries can learn from.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Amazon is too big. Bigger than some countries economy. Nothing can replace it.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

If you count ship to store or home sales, it’s competing with Walmart, Hole Depot, Zoro and EBay. Most of the same garbage sellers are on those sites as well. The problem is none of them are any better than Amazon.

I’m just attempting to shop locally, or if I need something particular , get it from more trustworthy (though unfortunately usually more expensive) sources, usually direct from manufacturers, or industrial suppliers (McMaster or Grainger for hardware or construction parts for example).

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Flohmarkt is probably the closest thing https://codeberg.org/grindhold/flohmarkt

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Particl.io is what you are looking for. They created a decentralized market place

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

I use Google Shopping. While Google is centralized, its merchant network is decentralized and I often find things that I can't on Amazon.