this post was submitted on 08 Jun 2024
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Television

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[–] SpeakinTelnet 162 points 5 months ago (6 children)

They'll fall into the trap of never creating a proper ending aren't they?

[–] Assman 62 points 5 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 10 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I'm imagining a series finally like a weird mixture of Clue and Fallout 4 where the last episode has four possible endings and three are basically the same and they're all shown.

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 5 months ago

The horse will be pâté.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 5 months ago (1 children)

A big theme I'm hoping to see in season 2 is to see what their take on New Vegas' ending would be in the show.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Todd Howard already said that they aim to be as ambiguous as possible and not canonize any of player's choices. It will probably be "yeah there was a big trouble here a couple of decades back but it's all ancient history now so who cares". And the town's leader will be some schmuck who hasn't even heard of Mr. House.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 5 months ago

This series would be ripe for new plot and characters every season Fargo style. Too bad they'll never do it.

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[–] [email protected] 149 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (19 children)

Notes to writers and producers.

IF👏 YOU👏 MAKE👏 AN👏 ADAPTATION👏 THAT👏 IS👏 FAITHFUL👏 TO👏 THE👏 ORIGINAL,👏 YOU👏 WILL👏 MAKE👏 LOTS👏 OF👏 MONEY.👏

Witcher died when they started changing things

Rings of Power died when they started changing things

Game of Thrones died when they ran out of source material

Halo died when they started changing things

It has nothing to do with race, or gender, or whatever bullshit you hide behind for your ego trips. Take your ego out of the equation. Stop thinking "I can improve on this". No, you can't. People love this. Just write this. Stop thinking "oh, this would be so much better if I added--" NOPE. Stop. Even if you're extending the canon, consult the original authors. And if the original authors say "this doesn't really match the tone", then FUCKING REWRITE IT UNTIL IT MATCHES THE TONE.

[–] [email protected] 31 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (5 children)

First of all, I agree with everything you said.

PS: spoiler warning for Thee Body Problem, so just skip that paragraph.

However, I think that deviating from the source, or adding stuff, etc, wouldn't be so destructive, if the writing was actually good.

Three Body Problem adapted by D&D, still felt a bit meh, because they made a bunch of changes that were just terrible writing. They didn't understand the source material, so they made the VR stuff alien tech. They made the stars blink, not the cosmic background radiation. The dimension folding fuck up leading to a giant eye over... Earth?... Why did they think that made any sense? It happened on Trisolaris, and it was such a goosebump inducing thing... Did D&D just think it might look cool, and... Since you cannot easily show it without showing the aliens... They kinda went "let's just do it on earth", even though it made no fucking sense whatsoever, because, they wouldn't have any reason to play a fucking prank on earth. Shits and giggles weren't their thing... Gah.

The Witcher suffered because the writing was actually quite bad at times.

Game of Thrones... I mean... I don't know why Dumb and Dumber get their hands on any work whatsoever. They have shown they know nothing of the world and systems they write for, nor characters or development. It's just embarrassing.

Halo, I haven't watched. And Fallout, I just know that Nolan and Joy are absolutely amazing writers. The only concern I had was to what extent people like Tod could fuck things up.

I think what I'm trying to add is that: Good writers can tell very engaging adaptations within the existing constraints of lore, world and rules, but it doesn't need to be existing canon. You can always tell new stories, as long as it sticks to the established rules and world building people expect. Bad writers fail at that, and often need to add contemporary trends where it doesn't belong. The fundamental issue might just be a skill issue.

Good writing is hard. It requires a lot of effort. You need to be congruent with the world and rules you've built so far. Not everyone will notice everything that deviates. Noticing bad writing is catching a lie given the presented imagined premise. Some suspension of belief is of course necessary, or risk being an annoying pedant. But, don't pretend someone is a level headed strategist, who then sends half their army out of a defensive fortification... to fight an enemy who is known to make dead soldiers fight for them. So which is it, do the people in charge know what castles are for, or did they suddenly become dumb as bread to suit some contrived narrative, or perhaps lack thereof?.. Gah..

J. J. Abrams didn't deviate all that much from lore. But my God what a grade A moron he is when it comes to plots points. Thousands of extremely talented master craftsmen, all coming together to tell a story... that only works if you don't think about it at all. And you might wonder which franchise in particular I'm referring to, as both apply.

The Expanse TV adaptation is a master class in doing everything right. TV is a different medium, and you cannot tell the story in the same exact way. But the changes they did, still told the same story, and most changes just suited visual medium better. They even had to off a character because of real life reasons, which was a little bit abrupt, but even so, they managed to adapt to that just fine.

Wheel of Time... weird additions and focus on romantic relationships that detracted from the magnitude and seriousness of the story itself. Maybe I was just a bit too young when I read the books, but I certainly didn't remember it like that, and it made the characters feel weird, and... immature. Also, somewhat intellectually insulting. Personal sacrifice, and love (? I'm looking for a better word...) for someone, doesn't require romantic interest.

I'm rambling.

TL;DR: Good writing good. Bad writing bad. Bad writing != not 100% aligned with source material. Contemporary tropes for no good reason = bad writing. JJ, please stick to directing. D&D... Maybe take up painting? Pretty please?

[–] [email protected] 9 points 5 months ago (4 children)

I guess it's entirely possible that there's just an epidemic of bad writing.

When there's an existing beloved IP, it already had good writing. Being faithful to that = good writing. Not YOUR writing, but good writing.

It's theoretically possible to deviate from that existing good IP and still have good writing...it's just not very likely. Don't bet on it. Stick to the existing good writing.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 5 months ago

An additional problem (maybe the biggest problem imho) is Amazon and Netflix et al refusing to give them more than 8 episodes per season. For things with a huge amount of source material (e.g. Wheel of Time) this forces the writers to make big changes in order to try to tell a big story in a too short amount of time. Combine this with inexperienced writers or writers who think they can do a better job than the source material, and you've got a recipe for failure, in my opinion.

The Wheel of Time, for example, had many small moments that were amazing, almost perfect, but overall the show ends up being disappointing when so many other parts fail completely.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

I was to about to say the same in less eloquent way. It is worth noting though that The Expanse had both writers of the books heavily involved in the adaptation. You could also see that they drew from Game of Thrones did things, especially with consolidating characters.

I also wouldn't be so fast to judge some series that are far from being over like Rings of Power and Wheel of Time. First one is meh but not offensive. WoT needed heavy cuts to the story because of how long it is but it's still very watchable.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (4 children)

Ah, I loved Wheel of Time. I'm making an effort to forget about it so I'm suddenly surprised by season 3 being done. The deviations from the books didn't ruin it for me, like it seems it did for many. I just found it unnecessary, and mentioned it more as an example of bad writing, and did not mean to imply that all of it was bad. Far from it. Great actors all around, and amazing visual direction, oh, and costume designers! The forsaken, especially Ishamael... the clothing. It's so good, I want to figure out who worked in it. And I don't even care much about that stuff either, usually. They did so many things, absolutely brilliantly. Ending of S1 was very anticlimactic, so I get why that that in particular put people off.

I havent watched Rings of Power. Maybe I should, based on what you're saying.

I didn't understand what you meant by drawing on GoT for consolidating characters. Apologies.

PS: In case I gave the impression of being a miserable piece:

  • I loved S1 of the Witcher, and largely enjoyed S2 and even S3, though that took concerted effort.
  • 3BP was fine, and entertaining enough. It has the potential to be great, but not with the lack of.... insight from D&D.
  • The Expance is one of the best sci-fi series made, and anyone remotely interested should see it, and also keep watching even if the first season isn't entirely convincing. OK to call it quits if S2 isn't.
  • GoT went down hill already from S5. The torture porn thing was just... unnecessary and... two dimensional evil that requires a telling lack of imagination.
  • Arcane is a masterclass in... pretty much everything. Especially character development, and as a counterpoint to the above: nuanced "evil".
  • The Gentlemen TV series by G. Ritchie is a fun time, and imo underrated.
  • Everything JJ has written is vapid shit.
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[–] [email protected] 17 points 5 months ago (1 children)

There are exceptions. The Boys, for instance, succeeded due to it not being a faithful adaptation.

Don't get me wrong, the books are fine for what they are, but the only people who'd enjoy (or even tolerate for more than a couple episodes without getting physically sick) a faithfully adapted Garth Ennis book are probably the same that think Homelander is the good guy, who thankfully seem to be a minority.

Or another one: I very much doubt a faithfully adapted Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep film could have achieved the cult classic status of Blade Runner; as much of a staple of science fiction as Philip K. Dick is, he's a bit of an acquired taste, and most viewers would probably fall asleep halfway through a faithful adaptation, long after having lost any trace of the plot...

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 5 months ago

Instructions unclear, people are getting tired of video game adaptations.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 5 months ago

Fuckin’ A.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 5 months ago (2 children)

I agree so much with this. I would also add X-Men. The cartoons have been so much better than the movies. The movies (yes all of them) might have a few good scenes, but they toned down the comic bookness of it. They as a whole suck.

The cartoons stay killing. Still has the best Phoenix adaptation. The new X-Men 97 shows it can adapt a lot more storylines without skipping a beat.

I mean X-Men TAS/97, Evolution, and Wolverine and the X-Men. All good in their own way. I prefer my 90s baby, but they are all better than the movies.

The thing is Deadpool proved you can make it work. Let's hope Disney learned this lesson too.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 5 months ago (2 children)

Witcher lead left. Still getting 2 more seasons.

Rings of power is about to have a second season.

Got started to suck because D and D rushed 2 seasons to try to work for Disney, which was pulled.

Fallout is popular because it's good. All of the above changed a ton from the source. Only niche fanboys care how accurate something is and they don't move the needle on popularity.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

Game of Thrones didn't suck because D&D rushed things. It started to go downhill as early as season 5, when they ran out of source material. People overlooked it initially because Game of Thrones had such a strong hype train. The last two seasons were just so blatantly bad that no one could ignore it anymore.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 5 months ago

GoT had problems before that. They didn't just run out of source material, they deliberately skipped a lot of it, mostly magic related.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 5 months ago (1 children)

TLoU is changing a lot but it's excellent

[–] [email protected] 9 points 5 months ago (2 children)

I've never played the game but all I ever heard was that it was an extremely faithful adaption, and that the last episode is almost a 1 for 1 translation from the game to the show.

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[–] [email protected] 51 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I don't think you get a $153m budget without expecting it to be popular.

[–] Madbrad200 48 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (4 children)

A big budget doesn't guarantee success though. See LOTR series.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 5 months ago (1 children)

of course, but that's not the point. the point was making a popular show was absolutely their goal, not sure why they feel the need to posture about being "surprised".

[–] [email protected] 16 points 5 months ago

They may have been expecting it to be popular, but less so than it actually was.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 5 months ago

By most metrics the Lord of the Rings show was very successful. Now none of those metrics mean much to you or me, but they do by the people who sign the checks I think.

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[–] [email protected] 35 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (8 children)

I just hope it doesn't overstay its welcome like just about every show these days.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Amazon will cut the budget every consecutive season.

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[–] [email protected] 31 points 5 months ago (7 children)

Make 5 seasons then end it. Nothing worse than shows that go on too long then start to become shit.

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[–] [email protected] 30 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (11 children)

As a huge Fallout fan since the aughts, I was pleasantly surprised. The show is faithful to it source material and nails tone the games are known for. Some cameos helped the with dark humor. Story was interesting too, especially the b plot about the vaults.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (4 children)

Nobody uses aughts the way they ought to anymore.

Edit: Apparently I have not used Ought to the way I should have. TIL

[–] [email protected] 6 points 5 months ago

That article is confusing, the title suggests there's a difference in how "should" and "ought" are used, but besides the fact that "ought" sometimes comes with "to" there doesn't seem to be one.

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[–] [email protected] 25 points 5 months ago
[–] [email protected] 20 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I wonder how many creators are taking less money to get better support at outlets other than cancel-happy HBO and Netflix? Five seasons is a great deal if it works out for them.

[–] [email protected] 30 points 5 months ago (5 children)

I can't be bothered to watch any series on netflix that are not finished with a proper ending for this exact reason. Fuck them for not giving shows actual endings and just cancelling them.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 5 months ago

Same! Netflix has trained me not to even watch new shows until the show has a proper finale. Fuck em for making so many throw away shows just to pump thier numbers.

Same goes for Google, it doesn't matter what miraculous app/hardware they dream up with, cause those fucks are no better when it comes to abandoning thier work. It's all pump and dump after the quartler numbers are out.

Enshittification is getting out of control.

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[–] [email protected] 17 points 5 months ago (2 children)

Watched the first season before Amazon added ads to their streaming. It was pretty decent. Not decent enough to watch ads or pay more.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 5 months ago

I have Amazon prime and I watched it pirated anyways to dodge the ads. Service issue.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 5 months ago

If they could commit to just five seasons it could be a really good show, but if they plan to try to keep it going and milk it, it'll be complete garbage by season 3

[–] [email protected] 11 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

They started with an already well detailed, quite deep, world (including already having various stories), which already had quite a number of fans (thanks to it being in a series of Role Playing Games - which is pretty much the kind of games closest to a TV Series or Movie), didn't fuck it up by writting a bad script, didn't fuck it up by getting bad actors and didn't fuck it up by being cheap on FX.

It's not exactly surprising that it was a success..

It's maybe a little optimist at this point to expect at least 5 seasons - mainly because that's plenty of time to fuck it up, especially around the point when the initial story either wraps up or gets boring, which is were plenty of great TV Series turn to shit - but yeah, so far so good.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 5 months ago

I wish for the Horizon (Zero Dawn) series to have that kind of luck with good story/writing, acting, and FX... then I always remember that it's Netflix making it and get disappointed every time.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 5 months ago

If the other seasons are as good as the first season I'm all for this. Adaptations of game franchises can be hit or miss but this was really well done.

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