A real car guy wouldn't have anything in particular against EVs because he already drew the line at automatic transmissions.
this post was submitted on 06 Feb 2024
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Car guy checking in. I think Teslas are cool and all, but trains are the future. I want trains to be so good that people would rather take them so that people like me, who care a lot about driving, get to drive. And people who would rather read a book or play a game while commuting aren't forced to drive when they clearly don't want to.
I have a 1997 Prelude Type SH manual. And I'm looking to replace my 2012 auto Civic with an 8th Gen Accord LX manual because I really missed driving stick daily and want a cheap manual I can daily.
100% this. I'm passionately on the other end of the spectrum, where a car's entire purpose is to get me from A to B without fanfare, prestige, or hassle. Also needs the birds eye camera because fuck parallel parking. Trains are a better way to do all that. And we should be moving more good with trains. Trucks are expensive and should be last mile exclusively.
The problem for most people is that trains, and other public transport, don't take you from doorstep to doorstep. God help us all if we have to walk 1/4 mile to a stop. There is also politics preventing it, at least in America.
Civic? A car you can trust.
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There are stick shift EVs. They're expensive, but you can actually get an old ICE body, and convert it to an EV stick shift.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44211128/toyota-prototype-ev-sports-car-manual-transmission/
They won't sell, since electrics don't work like ICE do.
If we're talking about extracting the maximum amount of power or efficiency from a car, manual transmissions stopped working like that a while ago when they got computers shifting better than humans could. Aren't modern Porche ICE manual transmission cars slower and less efficient than the automatic transmissions?
We are talking feel of driving. Fans drive manuals because of the mechanics of it, not because it's a knob that goes in five directions. Automatics scale the power directly, you press a little, the car goes slow. You press a lot, it gains power immediately. ICEs don't work that way.
FYI, I didn't downvote you.
We are talking feel of driving. Fans drive manuals because of the mechanics of it,
They do now but they didn't used to. Manual transmissions since the dawn of automobiles were the best way to extract power and efficiency from a motor. Manual gearboxes had no equal. They had less mechanical losses. They allowed the skilled operator, the best judge in that era, to change the torque and speed ratios to best fit the need, be it top speed, top torque for towing, or best fuel efficiency. The consequence of that is that the skill of the operator had a material effect on the vehicle itself. The better the operator in how and when to shift and how to use the clutch, the better the end resulting performance. This meant that prowess in operating a manual transmission was truly a valuable skill.
All of that is largely history. Computers just do it better now for nearly all transmission interactions 99% of the population interacts with. Yes, F1 drivers still have a need for it. Mega industrial trucks might need stick shift too. All of us buying cars at local dealerships are getting a less performant and less efficient vehicle if we're buying a manual transmission today.
I'm not judging if you like to cosplay that it matters now on your daily driver. You do you, man. It doesn't hurt me a bit, but isn't trying to pass it off as "better" anymore intellectually dishonest?
I don't think they claimed it was better, just that some people prefer the control it gives them and also the feel of it.
I'm considering buying one. I don't expect them to become mainstream, and I'm aware that the transmission isn't working the same way an ICE transmission works, but the trade off of feeling seems worth it to me. I mean the choice here is either a normal EV or an EV cosplaying as a manual. ICE just isn't a choice I can make in good conscience anymore.
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Bicycle guys: "A car with an electric motor is still a car"
I'm don't do very much bicycling, but I much prefer breathing next to EVs than ICE vehicles. Being forced to breath someone's stinky exhaust when you're breathing heavy from physical exertion sucks.
Yeah I’d rather be a cyclist next to EVs, but I’d much rather not have to share the road with cars. Those things are dangerous.
Also they're all the time on the way when riding in cities, they take massive amount of space for 1 person transport. Not even talking about having to stop every block just to let cars go over the intersection
you're going to shit when you find out sidewalks are next to streets.
Breathing in Micro-rubber/micro-plastics from disintegrating car tires isn’t fixed at all by electrification.
I can also hear ICE cars approach from behind when I’m cycling, but that isn’t the case with electric vehicles (which might be using “autopilot” and can’t see me on the road). I’m not sure if that whirring sound is present outside of low speeds, but I certainly can’t hear it with wind crossing my ears. Sometimes tire noise is audible, but not always.
On the other hand, ICE drivers are more likely to intentionally try to hit me soooo
Breathing in Micro-rubber/micro-plastics from disintegrating car tires isn’t fixed at all by electrification.
But in the comparison of tailpipe emissions (0.02 mg/km) vs tire emissions (36mg/km), I know which one I’m more worried about.
Nick Molden of Emissions Analytics seems to think that the heavier the vehicle, the worse the wear on tires seems to be (though it greatly depends on driving style and torque). That’d probably mean heavy EVs and SUVs are the worst for this.
Not that bicycles are completely clean- but there’s probably a time in the future to worry about bicycle microplastics- after the cars have been phased out.
We're talking about personal subjective measures, so there isn't an objective "right" or "wrong" answer, but there's a bit of a double standard to your logic. Here's what I'm seeing from your stance:
- ICE vs EV = even though EVs better, its still a car so still not good enough so use third choice "bicycling"
- EV tire pollution vs bicycle tire pollution = bicycles produce the same type of pollution but less of it, so its good enough
It seems like your logic should follow:
- EV tire pollution vs bicycle tire pollution = bicycles produce the same type of pollution but less of it, but still not good enough so use third choice "walking"
You could argue "walking is too slow, while biking is faster and at least less destructive than worse alternatives for fast travel". However, that would also seem to introduce "bicycling is too slow, while EV is faster and at least less destructive than worse ICE alternatives for fast travel".
So you like bicycling, and there's nothing wrong with that as it is purely subjective and there isn't a wrong answer, but if you're adhering to your logic, you should eschew bicycling for walking as its less destructive using an objective argument.
Just chiming in to mention electric bikes, which are faster than regular bikes, lighter than cars (thus less tire pollution), longer range than most people could reasonably bike, lower price point than evs, and cheaper to maintain than evs. It would be a reasonable alternative for short distance trips in cities and suburbs while cars are phased out in favor of other alternatives (buses, trains, trolleys, etc)
So you say because bisicles are not perfect we should just don't give a shit?
The still produce way less tire pollution than cars.
- You only have two tires instead of 4.
- A bike has the fraction of the weight of a car.
- The tires are relatively thin and small, while car tires are just monsters. Especially those of electric vehicles.
So accusing that guy of double standards is just wrong. The problems bikes have are negligle, compared of a lot of things we use on a daily basis. And btw the tire pollution isn't the worst part of an ev, by far. The production of the battery alone produces more co2, uses more resources and produces more waste (especially a lot of chemical waste), than 10 bikes produce during their whole livespann.
No, they are saying that the same logic of that comment against EVs can be applied on bicycles.
It is attacking the logic, not the concept.
So you say because bisicles are not perfect we should just don’t give a shit?
Nope, never said that.
Maybe this will illustrate my point better. I'll use your words as the template:
So you say because walking is not perfect we should just don’t give a shit?
Shoes still produce way less tire pollution than bicycles.
You only have ZERO tires instead of 2.
A pair of shoes has the fraction of the weight of a bicycle.
The soles are relatively thin and small, while bicycle tires are just monsters. Especially those of mountain bikes.
The problems shoes have are negligible, compared of a lot of things we use on a daily basis. And btw the tire pollution isn’t the worst part of an bicycles, by far. The production of the steel frame or carbon fiber resins alone produces more co2, uses more resources and produces more waste (especially a lot of chemical waste), than 10 pairs of shoes produce during their whole livespan.
So back to me: An argument against EVs with bicycles as the alternative also works as an argument against bicycles with walking as the alternative. That's the double standard. Or to put it another way, if an argument against EVs (in this context) in favor of bicycles is valid, then that same argument against ICE in favor of EVs is valid.
Shoes still produce way less tire pollution than bicycles
Do you have a source for that? Because that doesn't match my experience at all, especially if we measure by wear per mile. Plus, shoes are a lot more finicky than bike tires. If they're not a good fit or if the wearer has bad walking habits, they'll wear out prematurely and end up in a landfill with a lot of rubber left. I tend to wear out the balls of my feet, for example. To do the same with a bike tire you'd have to be downright abusive, locking brakes on pavement and stuff
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Breathing in Micro-rubber/micro-plastics from disintegrating car tires isn’t fixed at all by electrification.
but even if you deleted all the cars, you'd still have small trucks, busses, fire trucks, etc.
perhaps instead of saying no to car rolling things, come up with superior ways to roll things?
cycles leave the same residue, their wheels are simply smaller.
If transportation is necessary, find ways to mitigate emissions as best as possible. If emissions are unavoidable, use the thing with least emissions (small-tired lightweight vehicles) until you research a solution to a tire material that isn’t harmful (which is being worked on I think). Busses mitigate a dozen or two cars. Local rail mitigates a few busses and a few hundred cars. Essentially, personal vehicles should be small and lightweight, and essential mass transit or city services should be large enough to serve an entire area.
Yup.
But I'm sure a bicycle guy still understands the benefit of electric cars over regular cars
Literally true; but also yes. A car that doesn't look before turning is the same whether it's ICE or EV. I'm a bus-and-walking guy, not a bike guy, but any car is a danger to me when I'm crossing the street. It's not a problem we're going to solve with batteries. Mass transit, raised crosswalks, narrowing roads, physical speed controls, and densified cities (to name a few) are all things we desperately need.
Cute. But fuck Tesla.
Better yet, Unionize Tesla.
Person who does not care about a topic
No reaction
Person who cares
Strong reaction
No way!
Reactionary is when you react, everybody knows that.
Ya wai.
Reactionary Car Guys: look at the performance numbers on this ICE car! Fast! Acceleration! Wow!
EV proceeds to beat all those metrics
Reactionary Car Guys: Performance doesn’t matter!
I don't know if car guys means hobbyist and tinkerers, but for those performance isn't the most important metric to begin with. Feel and being able to repair and tinker are big ones.
As an EV zealot I 100% support tinkerers, racers, and people who simply love the spirit of an ICE. But not in commuting/traffic, where nobody is enjoying anything anyway.
It's illegal to get a tesla and not get a vanity tag with a EV joke on it
While this was the case at one point, with the rise in EV ownership the pool of good EV joke plates became fewer and fewer. Many state have passed legislation allowing new EV owners to petition for non-EV joke plates where the state has reached full saturation. /s
edit: Why is @[email protected] being downvoted? They posted a joke. This isn't a high art forum. Its in a shitpost community.
It's depressing but we probably need to bring the "/s" back because people here are fucking clueless
Gotta say, Lemmy users are generally stupid at detecting sarcasm even with context.
Reactionary car guys are the people "ice"-ing charging stations and talking about how they're just going to consume more oil in response.
I too enjoy foil
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