this post was submitted on 15 Jun 2023
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Lemmy.World Announcements

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What defederating would mean:

  • We won't see beehaw.org posts/comments on other instances.

Pros:

  • There is less confusion, you can't respond to a beehaw.org user, thinking they will be able to see your response when in reality they cannot.

Cons:

  • We won't be able to see any beehaw.org comments/posts on other instances, so we will miss out on some comment threads and posts. It could be good to be able to see them and interact with the other users there even though beehaw.org users won't see any of our content.

Summary

Overall, I think it is better not to defederate, but simply unsubscribe from all of their communities (and as we no longer get posts from their instance, with time these will cease to appear on our 'front page').

beehaw.org users already can't see our posts/comments anywhere so it's not like defederating would change their experience in any way, so it wouldn't really be retaliation and would just limit the content available to lemmy.world users.

What do you think?

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[–] [email protected] 76 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Please don't defederate. Just have it reserved for actually intentionally malicious or negligent instances.

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[–] [email protected] 53 points 1 year ago (1 children)

My gut feeling is that defederation should be done as little as possible. I'm quite new to all this, but to me, it feels like it should be user preference instead of admin/mod preference. I have no clue whether that is even possible though. Perhaps there should be more filters than just Subscribed, Local and All to alleviate certain issues.

[–] [email protected] 31 points 1 year ago (4 children)

One problem atm is that a user can't block by instance, just by community or individual users. It seems a lot of people are requesting this ability though so hopefully it gets added in the future.

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[–] [email protected] 52 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Lets avoid defederating. I am not to sure why beehaw.org defederated Lemmy.world, i understand it's not a final decision but more of a quick mitigation to deal with de difficulty related to the reddit exodus. Right?

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago (3 children)

But surely we hope that this level of users is permanent? I think it'll be in place until lemmy has better moderation tools, which could be quite some time. It has the benefit that it is Open Source though so anyone can help.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago

the level of users is hopefully permanent, but the lack of moderation to adequately deal with it, both from beehaw and lemmy.world, is not

its also a cultural problem, at the moment the culture of the fediverse is still settling and folks are poking and prodding and seeing how much they can get away with

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

The problem is mainly that open registration allows quick ban evasion, making it very hard to remove bad actors that are using instances with open registration (without admin approval).

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago (2 children)

But admin approval just slows it down right? Like how is the admin going to know you aren't a bad actor?

It also really slows down the sign-up process which will cripple the growth of the Fediverse.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Yeah, it's a pity, this is the worst time for defederation, when the userbase is seeing a boom in growth.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Yeah, it seems some are happy to burn down the whole thing if it means they can rule over the ashes.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago

I think we need to avoid defederating as well, should only be used for the most problematic, habitual cases of malicious intent imo.

We need to let this grow and solidify a bit more before we start to really get in the weeds as far as our identity as a community.

[–] [email protected] 39 points 1 year ago

I'm not using beehaw and probably never will. I don't want to be in a "safe space" as they put it. That said, I totally understand that some people want that sort of community, it's their decision, and thanks to federation anyone who disagrees can just leave. If you're complaining about them defederating from you - you're probably part of the reason they did.

That said, it would be really helpful to have some sort of icon next to posts/comments that are defederated from your instance, just so you don't waste your time responding to them when they can't see it.

[–] [email protected] 25 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

What happened? Why are they making this move? I think it's a bad idea to start defederating, especially this early.

Edit: How effective or practical, for lemmy.world in the future, would a voting system be for defederating? In case it comes to that for us.

Cause it seems like a very dramatic approach, with only a few people making the decision to drop a ton of content yknow.

Not sure if it's possible even, I know it comes down to our admin, but they seem pretty cool. I dunno just thinking aloud.

[–] [email protected] 26 points 1 year ago (8 children)

They said they couldn't deal with the level of abuse and spam that came from lemmy.world users. They have a much more restrictive content policy and smaller, centralised moderation team than most other instances which exacerbated the problem.

[–] [email protected] 28 points 1 year ago (12 children)

What's dumb is that if someone wanted to troll them they could just make an account on any number of smaller instances that they federate with. I mean, eventually they will have to be completely siloed off to prevent outside trolling.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Yeah, I suspect they will move to a whitelist the moment that functionality becomes available. Or just defederate entirely from everything and become a walled garden.

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[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Tbh, that's kinda hard to believe. I have seen zero malicious activity in my 4 days here. Maybe their standards are just higher than mine, not sure that's a good thing in this case but whatever. Damn that sucks, beehaw had some good stuff.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Same, I've found the attitude really positive here. It reminds me of early Reddit in like 2008.

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

From what I saw on their post, it seems there are bad faith actors registering in lemmy.world just to harass beehaw.org.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Sigh.

Who tf comes online just to troll "beehaw" some obscure instance on an obscure platform? That's crazy to me lol.

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[–] [email protected] 23 points 1 year ago (41 children)

I still don't understand the decision beehaw made

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[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Honestly I think this is an interesting real-world experiment in the entire federation paradigm. It's going to happen again and again, there's no escaping it. How does the ecosystem work when two large instances can't communicate directly? We're going to find out.

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago (4 children)

They might also remove the block again in the future when moderation tools have improved and/or lemmy.world does a better job at vetting users, and then it would work better to have never blocked them.

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

So we'll still see posts from beehaw users on other instances that beehaw still federates with?

Will we be able to interact with the above posts (vote / comment)? I'm guessing yes, because the posts would be hosted on those 3rd party instances still federating with beeehaw, not beehaw.

If I inderstand correctly, I'd be in favor of keeping the federation, which in short means "keep interaction with beehaw users through other instances", even if we lost sync and interaction with "communities / posts in those communities. hosted by beehaw"

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah, we can see them and interact with them. But the beehaw users won't see our comments, the other users on the instance will. So it could be confusing if you were expecting a reply from a beehaw user - as they won't even be able to see your reply.

I'm not sure how voting works, I guess our votes would count? As the copy is held on the instance? But maybe beehaw users wouldn't see them.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This is still confusing though. Ideally there'd at least be a warning in the UI that you are replying to a user who won't see your comment.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago

Yeah, Lemmy is open source so maybe this will get added. This was meant to be quite a rare edge case unless you were like from some Nazi/racist instance or something though.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago

You'd be able to see and interact with comments/posts made by BeeHaw users on other instances. However note that the BeeHaw user will never see it. Everyone else will.

[–] ImFresh3x 12 points 1 year ago

Work with the other instances first. Try to find a compromise. This should be done as a very, very last resort. And that’s not the impression I’m getting at all. Just a pain in the ass for users, and barely a hurdle for troll, which I’ve not seen much of on the first place.

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