this post was submitted on 01 Dec 2023
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65
I've tried ownCloud. (lemmy.ml)
submitted 11 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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Hey there!

I just wanted to share a bit about my experience as a hobbyist and self-hosting enthusiast. While I may not be the most educated on the topic, I've been able to self-host my favorite services to avoid relying on big companies like Google and Amazon.

A few years ago, I started my self-hosting journey with Nextcloud, and it completely blew my mind. Finally, I didn't have to rely on Google Drive anymore!

However, I quickly realized that using a Raspberry Pi made things a bit sluggish. I tried upgrading to a more powerful machine. Still slow. I then tried with an i5-4460, but it was still slow and buggy. I even tried an i3-10100, and it was still a bit of a pain to use. It seems like many others feel the same frustration, so I know I'm not alone. I often wonder how some other people claim they have no issues with Nextcloud, but hey, good for them!

Because of the tinkering it seems to need, I feel like I don't have enough time and knowledge to make Nextcloud work as smoothly as I'd like, which defeats the purpose of self-hosting it.

That's why I've been exploring other options. I gave Seafile a shot, but couldn't figure out how to solve a "CSRF verification failed" error. Projectsend and Xbackbone are great, but they don't quite match what I'm looking for. I also tried Cloudreve, but I wasn't a fan of its sorting philosophy. I did find Picoshare, which I stuck with, but for a totally different purpose.

Then, I tried ownCloud for the first time. Wow, it was fast! Uploading an 8GB folder took just 3 minutes compared to the 25 minutes it took with Nextcloud. Plus, everything was lightning quick on the same machine. I really loved using it. Unfortunately, there's currently a vulnerability affecting it, which led me to uninstall it.

I also gave OCIS a try, and it felt even faster. The interface was smooth and fluid, it was truly impressive. However, with the recent news of it becoming part of Kiteworks, I'm a bit unsure about its future.

I can't help but wonder why so many people have been raving about Nextcloud all these years when ownCloud performs so well right out of the box. I'd love to hear about your experience and the services you use. Share your thoughts!

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[–] [email protected] 26 points 11 months ago (2 children)

I have been selfhosting Nextcloud now for five years (never tried selfhosting Owncloud). And you are right with the performance observation (I never managed higher upload speeds than 30 MB/second), the key difference is the application support.

One thing that bothered me for years is how to find photos you took a while ago. While Google and Apple offer smart features, with my selfhosted setup I was always depending on the date as only way to find photos.

The memories app for Nextcloud is a real game changer. Let me show you some of the features.

📸 Timeline: Sort photos and videos by date taken, parsed from Exif data. ⏪ Rewind: Jump to any time in the past instantly and relive your memories. 🤖 AI Tagging: Group photos by people and objects, powered by recognize and facerecognition. 🖼️ Albums: Create albums to group photos and videos together. Then share these albums with others. 🗺️ Map: View your photos on a map, tagged with accurate reverse geocoding.

There are many more apps, from simple tools to complete office environments. For me, this is the reason why I will continue using Nextcloud for the foreseeable future.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 11 months ago

I found the application support to be a great plus when I started using Nextcloud. Then, maybe only psychologically, it felt like bloat slowing down my setup soI started hosting standalone solutions instead.

I totally get your enthusiasm about memories. But while I'm a photographer and have my own way of sorting stuff, I find photoprism or immich more attractive and convenient solutions.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Did you install Nextcloud with a redis instance for caching?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

I don't remember, probably not. I skipped most of the optional addons like phpmemcache.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 11 months ago (3 children)

I'm using seafile, and you just gave me flashbacks to the CSRF nonsense. Dont remember how i fixed it unfortunately.

I dont understand why nextcloud is so slow. I tried it out recently and its just so slow to upload files. Good to know owncloud is better, but might wait a little while before I try that out again.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago (1 children)

you just gave me flashbacks to the CSRF nonsense.

Hehe, report back if you remember something ;)

[–] timespace 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago

Thank you for looking that up :) I already read every post on the subject my search engine returned.

But you know what ? I tried again, calmly and taking my time and now it works. So thank you for putting me back on the right track :D

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago

Installed it a few weeks ago, no CSRF problems to report. And the sync client is finally Apple Silicon native.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago

I dont understand why nextcloud is so slow. I tried it out recently and its just so slow to upload files.

Because nobody on that team knows how to design and code software.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 11 months ago (12 children)

Nextcloud is very quick IF you don't mind applying extensive PHP and web server optimizations. This takes time and may have to be redone after upgrades depending on what changes. This is why I don't really recommend it to those just looking to self host a simple file server.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 11 months ago (1 children)

IF you don’t mind applying extensive PHP and web server optimizations

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm struggling with here. It's a bit counterintuitive for newcomers and not really friendly for beginners.

I'm just wondering, what is your process for those optimizations? Did you happen to follow any specific documentation or resources?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago (1 children)

The two main sources I used for initial setup was the nextcloud tuning guide and Carsten Rieger's guides which are always changing, here is the current one (in German but easy to translate).

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Thank you !

[–] [email protected] 5 points 11 months ago

I messed that up soooo many times it's not funny. I eventually gave up after spending two weekends on setup and just went with vultr and a turnkey solution.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago

Even then it's probably still slower than everything else is out of the box.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I've been using Nextcloud for years and it has never performed well but I always put that down to my disks being slow.

It has gotten quicker over time, but not hugely.

I rarely use the web interface, I just use the mobile app to sync photos from my phone then everything on my network runs over NFS. It even that was a pain to get working with permissions with NC.

Now I want to try OC. I think the reason I went with NC was because it was meant to be the new and better developed OC after a bunch of OC devs left to form NC.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago

If you try oc out, please, report back. I'm interested in reading your opinion.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Syncthing. Once you set it up, there is almost no going back. It doesn't pass through servers though so your backup machine also needs to be on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncthing

[–] Bakkoda 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

You actually forget it's even running. Example: Me. I forgot i had this installed.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Of course, Syncthing is a fantastic tool, but it's important to note that it serves a different purpose compared to platforms like NC or OC. What I'm really in need of is a collaborative cloud system that allows me to easily work together with other people :)

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Nextcloud AIO (all in one) is a docker compose nextcloud instance that handles all of the optimizations for you. That's what I use. I host it on a VPS I lease from contabo. Nextcloud is fast enough for me. I don't need lightning speeds.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

I remember trying it but it still felt sluggish. I tried uninstalling and reinstalling and it just kept failing and I didn't want to wipe anything just for Nextcloud.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

AIO is nice if you have a pretty well dedicated box it seems. For me, I've got a pile of services, split horizon DNS, and reverse proxies that made the domain check and talk modules a pain to set up with a lot of NAT/hairpins coming into play. If you're pointing straight to the box locally though it's a great way to get all the more complicated stuff patched in.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I sit it behind a traefik reverse proxy, I have a few other services running too, no issues.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

In my case the proxy isn't on the same box and ended up with the traffic coming out of the host to the proxy and then back from the proxy to the host, so effectively the host was both the source and the destination of the proxied traffic when it did that domain check. Similar issues for the turn server part. It was technically workable, but not particularly pretty so I ended up just doing a simple manual setup.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Or not... https://lemmy.world/comment/346174

The AIO is equally a crappy solution that doesn't work properly, like everything else in NC.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

and it was still a bit of a pain to use. It seems like many others feel the same frustration, so I know I’m not alone. I often wonder how some other people claim they have no issues with Nextcloud, but hey, good for them!

That has been my experience, even on high end hardware. It just doesn't get better, NextCloud is a joke full of bugs and issues and it won't get anywhere unless the people running the project decide to actually do thing properly instead of going with the "next cool thing" at every opportunity.

Here is a test I did with a AMD Ryzen 7 5700X + 32 GB of RAM: https://lemmy.world/comment/346174

I spent weeks researching and trying to tweak things and at the end of the day NC always performs poorly. Most of the issues seem to be related to the poorly implemente WebUI but the desktop app also has issues with large folders. Also tried the docker version, the “all in one” similar results it simply doesn’t cut it.

My experience with NC's Webmail: https://lemmy.world/comment/5490189

I can’t help but wonder why so many people have been raving about Nextcloud all these years when ownCloud performs so well right out of the box. I’d love to hear about your experience and the services you use. Share your thoughts!

I believe the people who say they don't have issues with it aren't just using it, after all you can't refute screenshots like the ones on the last link. This kinda looks a lot like the Linux Desktop Delusion, people say it can be everything to everyone and that things are just great while it fails at the most basic tasks a regular user might attempt. Since we're on the delusional land let me link to this about LibreOffice with pictures being considered "good enough for most paperwork with good MS-Office compatibility".

[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

NC webmail is unusable. We have to pretend it doesn't exist. Even with a completely empty IMAP server it takes 30 seconds to load. I don't know how it can be slow like that, they cache every single message in the database. Roundcube is 1000x faster and has no cache at all. Can't they just peek the source code?

I don't know how they even have it as a feature. Right now NC webmail it's not a beta, it's not alpha, , it's a proof of concept.

Like nextcloud maps. In their blog they wrote a post over one year ago describing it as the next big thing after sliced bread. You install it and that's it, you see a map of the world with no feature. Every single thing described in that post is something that could potentially do if some developer does some integration. Why writing the post then? Wait three, four, five years and post it when it's ready.

Look https://nextcloud.com/it/blog/plan-your-next-trip-with-nextcloud-maps-new-features/

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

NC webmail is unusable. We have to pretend it doesn’t exist. Even with a completely empty IMAP server it takes 30 seconds to load

Did you ever try the single sign-on option that allows users to login to NextCloud using their IMAP credentials? After spending some time with it you'll find it to be yet another half broken feature: https://github.com/nextcloud/mail/issues/2698 (see my reply bellow).

Roundcube is 1000x faster and has no cache at all. Can’t they just peek the source code?

Roundcube Open-Source Webmail Software Merges With Nextcloud ... So, what should we expect now? To have RC as NextCloud’s default e-mail interface OR to get RC filled with mindless bugs and crappy features/decisions? Most likely the latter as NC's "management" is what it is.

My second question about this merge is what is gonna happen with the Kolab guys (https://kolab.org / https://kolabnow.com) as they've been the ones actually "paying the bill" and investing serious development time into RoundCube and into useful plugins such as CardDAV and CalDAV that are actually better than anything NextCloud has done to this day. Their funding comes from their e-mail hosting service that is somehow in competition with NextCloud. Around 2006 Kolab also raised more than $100k USD to develop RoundCube so... that's the kind of investment they've been working under.

Like nextcloud maps. In their blog they wrote a post over one year ago describing it as the next big thing after sliced bread.

Another joke by NextCloud.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Wow, you did spend quite some time trying to make it properly work.

As someone that looks to be educated on the subject, what did you end up using as a replacement to NC ?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

@[email protected] read the last part of my comment here. :)

In short, a mix of Dovecot, Postfix, Syncthing, FileBrowser, WebDAV, Baikal, RoundCube (with Kolab plugins) and deployments to machines via Ansible. I also plan to integrate ejabberd, converse.js or Jitsi as a chat/call solution as soon as I have the time.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (5 children)

Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I've seen in this thread:

Fewer Letters More Letters
DNS Domain Name Service/System
IMAP Internet Message Access Protocol for email
NAS Network-Attached Storage
NAT Network Address Translation
RAID Redundant Array of Independent Disks for mass storage
VPS Virtual Private Server (opposed to shared hosting)

6 acronyms in this thread; the most compressed thread commented on today has 12 acronyms.

[Thread #326 for this sub, first seen 2nd Dec 2023, 02:55] [FAQ] [Full list] [Contact] [Source code]

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

the problem at least for me it's the plugins. I need news, tasks, calendar, snappymail, music, cospend, deck, forms, onlyoffice, cookbook, gpodder sync, notes and something else. OCIS is faster but i don't need just a simple drive....

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

I also need those services, but I find them more responsive with standalone solutions such as Vikunja, Radicale, Navidrome, IHateMoney and so on ;) My issue is that I badly need a fast and reliable drive for work.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Then, I tried ownCloud for the first time. Wow, it was fast! Uploading an 8GB folder took just 3 minutes compared to the 25 minutes it took with Nextcloud. Plus, everything was lightning quick on the same machine. I really loved using it. Unfortunately, there’s currently a vulnerability affecting it, which led me to uninstall it.

I have no idea on how you access your self-hosted services but wireguard could help you out to access all your service from all your devices, with less security risks and only one point of failure (the wireguard port). Also this takes away most of the vulnerabilities you could be exposed to, because you access all your home services through a secure tunnel without directly exposing the api ports on your router !

I personally run all my services with docker-compose + traefik + self signed CA certificats + adguardhome dns rewrite. And access all my services through https://service.home.lab on all my devices ! It took me some time to set everything up nicely but right now I'm pretty happy how everything works !

About the current ownCloud vulnerability, they already took some measure and the new docker image has the phpinfo fix (uhhg). Also while I wouldn't take their word for granted:

"The importance of ownCloud’s open source in the enterprise and public-sector markets is embraced by both organizations.”

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

I use a wireguard tunnel ;) Thank you for the updates on the vulnerability and from Kiteworks :)

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I sidestepped all this crap by buying Synology in 2014 and upgrading 2 years ago. Sure, it isn't FOSS, but it is very nearly plug and play.

I configured OpenVPN for when I want to use it remotely, and self host my music, video, and family photos.

Having the 4 drive RAID-6 gives me some security from the danger of losing data between backups.

I store all my scanned documents, ocr'd, and keep the paper under control.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

Synology was an option at some point in my journey, but yeah, I'm a FOSS enthusiast :)

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