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I’d dismissive to just Palestine as “the little guy” who tried a punch.
What happened to Palestine was awful, but they’ve been launching rockets into Israel and Israel was formed after Palestinians attacked them.
They were a neglected part of the Ottoman Empire, then the Brits and French promised them a united Arab state if they overthrow the ottomans, so they did, then the Brits and French reneged and strongly favoured Jewish settlement (Jews were being lynched in Europe, so it was kind of an easy solution to support them leaving at the expense of someone else). The British pulled out, the Palestinians attacked the Jews, it started a civil war and Israel won their independence and claimed the land.
There’s no clear right side or clear big guy or little guy. Is just generations of shit for hundreds of years coming to a head.
Hamas is awful and has been lobbing rockets at Israel for years and uses human shields, the Palestinian people deserve better, and it’s wrong for Israel to ignore the collateral damage they’re inflicting in this “ends justify the means war” are all true.
You need to read up on the history of the Zionist movement, the map of the proposed state of Israel pre-1948, Haganah/Irgun militias, and the Nakba.
Imagine living under British Imperialism, having another group of people decide that your land is their ancestral homeland, your land is now the useless desert while your coastal home is no longer yours. Imagine not fighting back after this.
This premise is already far-fetched
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism#:~:text=From%201897%20to%201948%2C%20the,first%20Zionist%20congress%20was%20organized.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
The problem is that many are asking for exactly that now
All of the "from the river to the seas" and insistence that Israel leave is exactly this again. Because the median age in israel as of 2023 is 29.1 years old. Much like most of the people in Gaza didn't even "vote" for Hamas, most of the people in Israel had nothing to do with the bullshit in the 50s.
This is the issue with basically any "I watched a youtube" level comment on colonization and imperialism. Yes, the modern day occupants have a LOT of advantages and benefit a lot from what their ancestors did (even if it is grandpa). But is it "just" to have everything taken away and given to the people who grew up disadvantaged because grandpa was a dick?
And are you at all surprised when there is push back to that?
And that extends to how all of this is being handled. "We" have more or less learned to distinguish between Hamas and Palestine because, outside of the dumbfuck tankies, nobody is stupid enough to think Hamas at all cares about Palestinians. But there is no similar acknowledgement for the IDF/Israeli Government and the people of Israel. Instead, we get disgusting stupidity like this topic chain where "Well... I am not going to say you deserve it but you totally deserve it" is the theme at hand.
It is the exact same idea about being anti-zionist without being anti-semitic and how so much discourse is failing at that. Which... makes it a lot harder to garner the level of support that would allow politicians who are very dependent on "the Jewish vote" to make it clear they are condemning a government and not a people.
Personally? I see no way that even a two state solution can work at this point. Ignoring the issue of land and resources, it will be Hamas and Islamic State assholes who take power in Palestine and that will just be pushing this off. But I also see no way that the Israeli Government will stop at anything short of genocide. But all of this not even veiled "Well, maybe you should have thought to not be born in Israel you colonist prick" level commentary is just making sure that there is no solution other than genocide by the side with the bigger guns.
It's disingenuous to post those wikis without also posting these
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_diaspora
and because people can't separate acknowledgment of reality from support of it - I don't support Israel, which is occupying some Palestinian lands, and is undeniably oppressing Palestinians who deserve to be free. At the same time, other parts of the land are the ancestral land of the Jewish people, they didn't just "decide" this or "turn up one day" out of nowhere, it's historical fact. But you know what? Both can be and are true, and ignoring history doesn't change that, it only makes your position weaker because you're clearly speaking from ignorance, deliberate or otherwise, and don't (or refuse to) understand the true complexity of this conflict and the history of the region.
It’s disingenuous to post that the Palestinians attacked Israel apropos of nothing.
You also clearly didn’t read the UN proposal link which discusses Jewish diaspora in the background section and you just decided to defend genocide out of the blue I guess lmao
Diaspora is near universal when it comes to ethnic groups so not a strong case. As an American, should I be able to claim some lands of France because it’s my ancestral homeland? Turns out the idea of ancestral land is stupid, because everyone lives in the now and fighting over the sins of our fathers is abject stupidity.
Jews have lived in Palestine, even after being expelled by Romans, but so have non-Jews.
Extending this line of thinking, I guess you also support movement for Native Americans to obtain their land back? The US and Canada is occupying some First Nations lands. Going further, should the Celts reclaim Britannia and kick the English out? This is a ridiculous argument.
Should these living residents of Canaan kick out the Israelis because they were there first?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/bible-canaanites-wiped-out-old-testament-israelites-lebanon-descendants-discovered-science-dna-a7862936.html
Would love to see a source for this "historical fact." And no, the Bible/Torah isn't a historical document. The sources I see cited in that first wiki page (notably 1, 2, 3, and 4) aren't very convincing.
Since 2000, the ratio of Palestinian deaths to Israeli deaths is 21:1 (NYT). Rockets? The name evokes weapons from Lockheed or Boeing, but Hamas and Islamic Jihad make them in garages and basement tunnels while Israel has the most hitech interceptors available. It's still comparatively slingshots to F-16s.
Hamas was created in 1987, and has benefited from disproportionate treatment from the Israelis, who used Hamas to divide the Palestinian resistance. When Israel blows ckekd the negotiation tactics of the secular Palestinian resistance, what else were Palestinians to do? Palestinians in Gaza tried mass civil disobedience I'm 2018 with the Walk of Return, but Israel used live rounds and nearly 300 were killed and thousands wounded. How else were the Palestinians to seek freedom?
It is the same issue of imperialism you can find in many places.
Very exhausting
Yet none of them get nearly as much attention as Israel.
Because we expected more and better from people who had already had someone try to exterminate them.
No one expected anything from terrorists other than terror.
I guess they lived to become a villain.