this post was submitted on 11 Nov 2023
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yeah,
these are the democracies that invaded Iraq/Libya to install a democracy.
I keep having to remind myself how much good it did to the people of Iraq/Libya.
and we all remember what a paradise those countries were. man, that time gadaffis son killed a waiter because he spilled soup. you miss him?
Libya now has open-air slave markets and has been described as a humanitarian disaster.
About as much as I miss Bush lying to us about WMD.
remember the black dude who gets shot for talking back in America ? anecdotes don't prove a general point.
btw Libya was doing better under Gaddafi
https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/Libya/human_development/
country did better before war than after.
amazing
was that the reason for those arab springs?
was at least the weapon to kill gadaffi american so you can blame the west?
fuck hamas.
Iraq is absolutely a functioning democracy and not a dictatorship right now.
Libya would be if it actually got invaded, which 100% should have happened. UN forces not taking control of the situation is a huge stain on the UN.
Calling for the invasion of Libya is fucking monstrous.
Over a million Iraqis died due to the US invasion of Iraq.
They did mention the UN.
The UN working in Libya as peacekeeping forces would've prevented the monstrous situation we're in now, at bare minimum. If you don't believe that, you quite simply are not recognizing past UN peacekeeping successes.
I have never supported the Iraq War but to deny Iraq is currently a functional, if very deeply flawed, democracy is, in my view, to devalue the Iraqi citizens and the fledgling democracy they have.
Because it's that easy to counter Islamic extremism in a power vacuum. ISIS was active and gaining power in 2011, including in Libya.
The state of Iraq's corrupt democracy as of 2023 is little better than under Saddam
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/4/16/the-long-shadow-of-saddams-dictatorship-in-iraq
And all it cost was over a million Iraqi civilian deaths, millions of refugees, and the birth of ISIS in 2007.
The 2015 British Parliament inquiry found that the Islamic extremists fighting Qaddafi would not have succeeded without western air power, weapons, intelligence, and personnel, meaning the best way to prevent the humanitarian crisis in Libya would have been to fucking leave Libya alone in the first place. The inquiry also found that the intervention was economically motivated rather than humanitarian.
https://www.salon.com/2016/09/16/u-k-parliament-report-details-how-natos-2011-war-in-libya-was-based-on-lies/
Hey look I found the exact issue the UN peacekeepers address in these exact situations
Just let Gaddafi murder people who want democracy with superior air power guys. It's simple.
Yeah? And how the fuck did that strategy work out anywhere else in the middle east?
The coalition air mission was to support Islamic extremists in battles against the Libyan government. Those rebels wanted an Islamic state in Libya, not a democracy. They were also committing racist pogroms and atrocities against black Libyans, and western operatives on the ground were aware of it the entire time.
Read the fucking article. Here it is again:
https://www.salon.com/2016/09/16/u-k-parliament-report-details-how-natos-2011-war-in-libya-was-based-on-lies/
Read every word of it before you respond to me.
Not sure where you have been in the past years but ISIS and Islamists in Libya.
The Middle East is a curious place. Regime change doesn't work if the population are too fractured for nation building, which Middle Eastern countries has plenty of. It is tragic to argue that living under authoritarians that provide stability is better than living free but without law and order.
I'm an advocate for democracy as much as the next person, but the secular dictators are what kept Islamic extremism in check. In this case, the dictators are the lesser evils. Which is why people accept that Bashar Al Assad won the Syrian civil war instead of placing faith on any of the opposition to rule, some of whom are Islamists.
I would, quite frankly, rather live in a world with more democracies and more extremists than a world with fewer of both.
Liberal Democracy is the only acceptable form of governance.
Liberal democracy only works if people are A) well educated and informed and B) have a strong identity as a group. Societies need to be well informed on issues and work towards finding solutions that benefit all. Unfortunately, many countries lack either or both.
You know what's not better than a flawed democracy? A dictatorship.
Be careful with confusing flawed democracy as anarchy.
I wish you knew how disgusting you're being right now
Well I wish I could, but frankly there is heavy Western centrist to exalt democracy by someone who speaks from the comfort of their air-conditioned homes and with rule of law. Dictatorship and authoritarianism are not bad in and of itself bad. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20150531-will-dictators-disappear
And naively saying Iraq has become better despite hundreds of thousands dead and led to the sprung up of ISIS is... I don't know, imperialist? White man's burden? Easy to say that Iraq has been doing well when one doesn't have to flee from conflict
Democracy must be an organic thing not enforced. As the article said, humans are not predisposed to crave democracy if security is the greater priority.
Honestly did not think I'd get a "dictatorship good" today.
You have a lot more to learn about the real world outside of "international community".
maybe you should read some articles from beyond the international community.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/4/5/iraq-war-20-years-on-visualising-the-impact-of-the-invasion
I know it's not your point but this implies asking aliens and I think that's fun.
As to your article, I am not and have never defended the Iraq War. Iraq is still a democracy, and I hope it remains one forever. That would be the absolute least the people of Iraq deserve after that war.
Yeah, Iraqis miss saddam so much don’t they? Especially the Kurds.
I don't miss Bush. A man I was too young to vote for, who lost the popular vote and was installed by his brother. A brother who got his position because his father was the head of intelligence service. Bush was a mediocre painter and a war criminal.
I'm sure they don't miss the Americans.
Bet they weren’t unhappy in 2014
Japan invaded Iraq and Libya?
Yes
so boring