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this post was submitted on 01 Nov 2023
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I've always wondered how people thought the "good guy with a gun" would work in a chaotic real world situation. Suppose you're armed and there's a mass shooting event. You pull out your gun and keep a look out for the shooter as you hear gunfire getting closer. Then you spot a guy holding a gun. You quickly take aim and fire...
... And hit another "good guy with a gun" who was trying to take out the mass shooter the same as you.
Oh, but then you get shot by a third "good guy with a gun" who thought YOU were the mass shooter.
Arming everyone and telling them to be "good guys with guns" just seems, at best, like it would lead to MORE injuries and deaths.
Or, as has actually happened before, a good guy with a gun kills the bad guy and then gets shot by the cops who arrive thinking the guy with the gun is the bad guy:
https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/equality/560798-police-chief-hails-good-guy-with-a-gun-after-officer-kills/
Yup, this is how it goes down in my head, and why I don't carry a gun. I think there's a decent chance that I could take down an active shooter (not sure if I have the guts to, but that's beside the point) because I have the element of surprise on my side, but there's an even bigger chance I get shot either in the crossfire or by the police. Most of the time it'll be a single shooter, but I have no guarantee that's the case, so I'd need to be ready for a second shooter.
I've run through a few options, and I just don't see a clear way to distinguish myself from an active shooter.
Of course, the other option is just say "please no don't do it I have a wife and 47 kids!"
You could also try running, yes, or hiding, but "carrying a gun" and "trying to get to an exit or shelter in place and only using said gun if he blocks the exit or finds your hiding spot" are not exactly mutually exclusive, you can do both, you don't have to "run towards the sound of gunfire" like some marine. In fact that would be the much smarter way to do it, "camping" isn't frowned upon in real life, this isn't COD. As for identifying who the shooter is "it's usually the guy shooting unarmed people," but failing that, "better to be sure and confirm your target," unfortunately this puts you at a disadvantage but he's willing to shoot random people and you aren't (I hope), so what're ya gonna do.
Pass gun control rules? And convict people like Rittenhouse.
Unfortunately from a realistic standpoint even with gun control laws this will not be an impossibility, though they may reduce the frequency. There's already upwards of 600,000,000 guns in 50% of the populations hands (and women won't stop buying them, they're the fastest growing group of new gun owners. More specifically black women followed by all women), even if you ban them they'll be out there.
And unfortunately Rittenhouse was textbook self defense, he only shot the guy who grabbed for his gun, and then the guy who hit him with a skateboard and grabbed for his gun, and then the guy who pointed a gun at him, not any of the people who retreated or didn't attack. I know, he lived in a different state and commuted 20 min to kenosha for work every day where his friends and dad lived, but the gun was kept at Dominic Black's house and never "crossed state lines" (also, even if it did, it is legal to cross state lines with a gun so long as it is legal in the state, and WI is far more permissive than IL, any gun legal in IL is legal in WI by far.) Also it is legal for a 17yo to have a gun in WI for some reason. Unfortunately even if we agree with his political opinions we currently can't put him in jail for that, he didn't actually break any laws.
Pass gun control laws and he showed up with a gun he should have gone to jail. Your bff is out there now as a darling of conservative media btw
But he was allowed to show up with a gun in case someone attacked him, can't arrest him for defending himself if he's allowed to do it, as unfortunate as that is. Sorry, I've never met him, you must have me confused with someone else.
You show up somewhere with a gun it is because you are planning on using it. And yeah he is your bff
Well if you plan on defending yourself if necessary, it isn't very much help to you if you leave it at home. Also idk how he can "plan" to be attacked, unless he's on the spice with the prescience. And naw never met him, sorry dude, you're definitely thinking of someone else.
He left his home, and he is your bff
Yeah but the thing about that is "he is allowed to leave his home, with a gun, and then defend himself against being attacked."
I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this but you're severely delusional. Not only have I never met him, I've never met you, sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
I'm not worried about me identifying the shooter, I'm worried about the police identifying me as the shooter or hostage taker if I somehow shoot the perp but don't kill them.
Best case scenario, I shoot someone and risk getting shot by the police, worst case scenario I get shot by the perp (and even worse, they use my gun to kill people), and average case scenario, I get out alive without using the gun. I just don't see a lot of good things coming out of it. My area is incredibly safe, so the chances of needing it are extremely small, the chances of it helping are even smaller, and the chances of my kids finding it are much higher than I'm comfortable with.
If I was commuting through a bad neighborhood, I could see it being useful. I live and work in safe neighborhoods, so it's not an issue.
Well that's why CCW training tells you to put your gun away if you're sure it's now a safe area, and if it isn't now a safe area (possible other shooters for instance) to GTFO and call the cops and your lawyer. Also why you should give a description of the active shooter if you call it in, so they know "oh this dude in a T shirt may be a defender, we recieved a call about a guy in tac gear." Of course, most often the shooters specifically target gun free zones because you can't have one there, so you technically likely shouldn't have one anyway, so makes sense the cops wouldn't expect a defender in those cases either.
Yeah it's something that everyone needs to decide for themselves (my issue is when people like to decide things for others.) It definitely can be helpful in a specific scenario, like a hammer to a nail, but it is also a responsibility and if you aren't able or willing to, you shouldn't, that simple. Especially if as you say you are you're priviledged enough to live in a good area, in contrast to pizza delivery drivers (well, "ex") who live in bad neighborhoods who may need them.
Agreed, and I'll always defend the right to carry, for those who choose to. I think we should have some extra restrictions, like maybe a CCW for concealable firearms (and subsequent training), plus proof of secure storage in some manner if you have kids.
The only place I'd carry is at work, and it's against company policy to carry. So I don't, it's just not worth the risk and the likelihood that I'd need it is so remote.
Well a CCW is already required in most states to carry except for those recently lightening restrictions. Secure storage is iffy, because the supreme court already ruled it invalidates the right to self defense (most home invaders aren't kind enough to wait until you get your safe open to duel you, they typically just steal the guns from your safe after forcing you to open it at gunpoint when you ask if they'll hold up a sec, and then use those in subseqent crimes.)
And yeah I hear that, unfortunately the fact that your work bans guns even with a CCW means that if you ever do need it, it'll probably be there, gun free zones being the typical targets, and disgruntled employees and all. But I totally understand that it becomes not worth the risk then, you'd either have to risk being found out and fired or keep it in the car which while sometimes necessary because "gun free zone" always feels like you're forced to leave a gun where it can be (and they often are) easily stolen.
Secure storage is mostly for people with kids or at-risk individuals at home.
Secure storage against burglary doesn't exist; if they want your guns, they'll just grind their way in or steal the safe to grind later. Expecting home owners to protect against that absolutely just isn't practical, the goal should be keeping curious (or determined) kids from getting in, and deterring theft from burglary should be a nice side-effect. Unfortunately, most gun locks fail that standard.
Yeah, I'm not going to escape a building with an active shooter to retrieve a gun and go back in. If I know I need it and it's in my car, it might as well be at home. And keeping it in the car is just asking for trouble from an officer, they seem to be easily spooked by such things. Fortunately, I'm white, so I'll probably get the benefit of the doubt, but it's just not something I'm interested in testing.
But if there was an incident in my office, I'd be screwed. There are three exits:
So basically, my options aren't great. Yet I still think I'm net better off not carrying.
As a kid who notoriously defeated locks and found hidden items: good luck. My parents didn't have guns to find but my uncle taught me about them when I was like 10 so tbh they were never really some mystical artifact to play with to me, I'd already shot a few, knew how to use them safely and not to do so without an adult, etc. Conversely nobody educated me about alcohol instead figuring locks would work, hehe. Surprise!
No lol you said work banned them, so people who work there and carry outside of work (maybe they have a life [sorry lol you seem cool but it was too perfect]) have to leave their gun in the car and put it in their pants at 5:00, so, were you to carry, you'd have to also do that. That is what I meant. Problem being, that rule makes for a good scenario for a gun thief. If there were an active shooter and you get out, fuck your coworkers that's their problem, take your gun and go home (unless you wanted to help them because you like them or they're humans or something, point being you aren't obligated to.) As for cops, if you are following the laws (and yeah white helps, but that is another issue that needs to be fixed) they actually seem to think you're on their side because "gun and following laws," oddly they started treating me with some semblance of respect, it was kinda weird.
Exactly ideal tbh, egress and alarm with one action? AND close? Sounds great.
Also a likely point of entry for the shooter, definitely terrible.
Kinda having trouble visualizing this but it doesn't sound great, best bet is the emergency or shelter in place, but SIP is hampered by lack of last ditch weapon. I'd push it out that door.
Yeah I'd agree, simply since it'd be illegal. Functionally, even if I'm heading for that exit or sheltering, I'd rather have a hail mary even if some situations are a Kobyashi Maru, but since it would be illegal to have in the gun free zone, you don't have a choice anyway.
I watch LockPickingLawyer on YouTube, and it seems every gun lock/safe has some gaping security issue, and many that I see at stores that haven't been covered look like they'd have similar issues.
So until I find something that LPL would approve for use around kids, I'm not buying a handgun.
That said, I'll probably get a small rifle soon (probably 22lr) that I can store in the attic. My kids could find it, it would take a lot of effort and it isn't that interesting. I mostly want it to teach my kids to shoot "real" guns (they've shot BB guns) and maybe go hunt some rabbits. I may also get a 22lr pistol, but that's a bit higher on the "cool" factor and thus higher risk.
If I find a lock that I can trust, I might pick up a 9mm or .357 for personal use. I've taken my wife shooting, and she really liked it, so I'd like to take her out to fed land and shoot sometimes. If I did, I'd get a CCW (unnecessary in my state, but necessary for travel) and carry sometimes when I go out to get comfortable with it. But the lock comes first.
Our muster point for most emergencies is right out front of our building, in full view of the front doors and windows where the shooter is likely to be. Our active shooter muster point (blue light alarm) is across the street behind the building in a parking garage (can see from the rear balcony, but there's a place to hide).
If I trigger the fire alarm, people will go right into the shooter's path. If someone else pulls it (far more likely), I would go right out front into the shooter's path. The alarm would also increase the shooter's stress level, which could be the difference between them shooting and not.
It's an office building built into a hill. The front is ground level and the rear has a ledge/balcony about 2 floors above the rear ground level that runs the length of the building in either direction. One side of the building has a parking garage, and the other has the truck loading zone down one level. Here's some crappy ASCII art (top is front, I work bottom right, t is truck loading, p is parking garage, XX is building, and | and - are the railing).
I work near the parking garage, and the no-alarm exit is ~2/3 of the way across the building toward the truck loading zone. From there, I can either run back to the parking garage (lots of windows), or toward the truck loading zone (some windows, drop onto cement).
It's not a gun free zone, it's merely against company policy and probably landlord policy. There is no posted signage, but I did need to sign something when I started acknowledging that I understand the rules. So violation wouldn't result in a criminal case, but it could result in my termination and/or official trespass order.
It's possible some people here carry (constitutional carry state), but given company policy, that number is probably pretty low. I would certainly risk violating that rule if I believed there was an elevated risk, like we fired someone over culture fit reasons (I'd probably just WFH honestly), otherwise I'd comply.
Yeah he's the best, and you're right. Be careful btw, .22lr is just as deadly as any other caliber and is also still pretty cool for someone sheltered away from them, that teaching and hunting will likely be more effective and remove the mystery.
Ah yeah that puts a damper on the alarm for sure lol.
Oh ok I can see it now.
And well good there's no posted signage, likely (depending on state) that means their ban has no teeth and is only actionable by firing which of course still sucks but it's better than dying. Hell, you're lucky you can WFH, I'd just do that as often as possible anyway haha.
Yup, WFH is great. Company policy is 3 days in office, but we're discussing for our department to go back to 2. We also have a department culture of WFH being viable with even a small excuse (e.g. waiting for an important package is sufficient), so something like "I don't feel safe because worker X got fired" would absolutely be acceptable.
And yeah, I know .22lr is deadly, but it has low enough recoil that I can teach even young kids to use it (three under 10), and basic gun safety should be enough to keep it from becoming lethal (don't look down the barrel, don't point at people, etc). Our family gun rules will be very simple: if you touch the gun without permission, you lose shooting privileges. And even if I store it in the attic (they'd need to move a heavy ladder to get to it), I'll keep it secured with a trigger lock and only store ammo separately in a safe (not very secure, but better than nothing).
One day I hope to carry a handgun because I want to be prepared. But preparedness is more than personal safety, it also includes safety for my job and kids. So either the gun would always be with me (impractical), I need to trust my kids (I don't), or it needs to be secure (haven't found a lock I trust). Maybe in a few years.
Hell yeah sounds like a good plan.
It’s deflective rhetoric so they don’t have to address the truth:
We don’t know who is going to make a bad decision with their gun until after they do it.
Yeah, my coworkers said how great it would have been after the Colorado movie theater shooting (Batman movie) if everyone was armed. They just knew the original shooter would have been killed right away.
So,
Who in their right mind thinks basically everyone wouldn't have been mowed down in a hail of gun fire?
It's either that, or the people with guns are afraid to use them when the time comes and they hesitate too long to do any good.
They picture it pretty much how it went down here:
Personally, I would just prefer to have a pistol in hand if I ended up in the last part of 'run, hide, fight'.
Yeah they picture it as a very specific scenario with one mass shooter and one retaliatory shooter. Any more than one retaliatory shooter and it all falls apart as OP described though lol.
Well if there is one thing a chaotic and violent situation needs is more guns.