this post was submitted on 02 Sep 2023
72 points (97.4% liked)
games
20516 readers
9 users here now
Tabletop, DnD, board games, and minecraft. Also Animal Crossing.
-
3rd International Volunteer Brigade (Hexbear gaming discord)
Rules
- No racism, sexism, ableism, homophobia, or transphobia. Don't care if it's ironic don't post comments or content like that here.
- Mark spoilers
- No bad mouthing sonic games here :no-copyright:
- No gamers allowed :soviet-huff:
- No squabbling or petty arguments here. Remember to disengage and respect others choice to do so when an argument gets too much
founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Darth Traya's actual motivation is very interesting, though. Star Wars' pseudobuddhist/pseudotaoist philosophy has always been its best feature, and Kreia is this very interesting character who is aware of the Tao and believes in its existence, and wants to kill it. Its a matter of free will and theology. There is a "god" that controls the entire galaxy, and here is a character who believes its existence is an unjust hierarchy and wants to kill it.
It is interesting but so many people that played it missed the point of her distracting Enlightened Centrism bullshit (which she spews no matter what the player decides to do, which is the point because it was a distraction tactic all along) and see her as some great and wise person instead of a betrayer, which was IN THE NAME.
The big hole in her idea is that she wants to do that for herself and doesn't really ask the rest of the living things in the universe if they want that. It doesn't matter because she wants it.
Does it make sense to give a choice to a population of people who don't have free will? The Force can't control individuals, but it controls populations. It can use propaganda to defend itself. Kreia simply sees the force as a state.
Why does Kreia get to make that decision? Does she get a pass that everyone else doesn't?
I don't want to go into a free will debate here. That's exhausting and annoying and I've done it so many times. Rather, I'm asking why Kreia gets to make that determination under the same standards you would apply to the rest of all life in the galaxy.
The same reason a 15 year old girl's parents get to decide that she's not allowed to pursue a romantic relationship with her pedophile teacher: compromised consent
That doesn't justify or excuse her pretenses of "saving" billions of people that didn't ask to be saved (in a way that may very well kill them considering the in-setting significance of the Force and how it relates to living things).
Her reacting against the Force is still being manipulated by it. If you deny agency with deterministic dogma for billions in the galaxy, how exactly is she really free of the same limitation if her only goal is still bound to the same entity, just as its negative?
She wasn't trying to save anyone. It really looked like another lie and another selfish agenda, a revenge motive that drags billions along for the ride.
Calling absolutely everyone children for not agreeing with Kreia is pretty absurd to me.
Unshackling billions from the control of an entity with mysterious but demonstrably harmful motives isn't the same as taking billions for a ride. The Mandalorian War was the will of the force. Krei is of the opinion that another disaster like that is bound to happen, and if she doesn't do everything in her power to kill the force, then the casualties are her fault.
In favor of following the agenda of an entity with constantly selfish and deceptive motives that have actively harmed and murdered many people in the course of the game?
As I have already said, she had no evidence or prior experimentation to prove that other living things could actually survive in any sustainable way in the game's setting without the Force altogether. She was doing a spite-driven experiment, and since she killed so many to get there, she's fine with dragging absolutely every living thing in the galaxy all-in with her.
I get that you like the novelty of what she was doing, but trading one galactic scale entity for a small-scale one and calling the big one murderous and trusting in the little murderous one is bad reasoning to me.
Kreia wasn't emancipating anyone. There was no revolution. She threw away the lives of her own followers just to get them in the protagonist's way. Liberation didn't matter to her. It was another lie. It was all a spite agenda. She was just another tyrant, and she'd throw you away just as quickly if not more quickly for her own selfish agenda.
Kreia had proof that people could survive without the Force. The Exile isn't a force user. I also don't believe her ideal of destroying the Force is synonymous with her methods. The Dark Side of the Force corrupted her from her ideals because that's what the dark side does. That's kind of the tragic irony of her character. She could never really escape the force. She could identify the problem, but unlike the Exile, she was incapable of enacting the solution upon herself. It's a cool story.
Kreia's track record consisted of killing and destroying everything within reach to further her own selfish agenda. Your belief that she was some kind of savior is buying into another lie of hers while her track record says otherwise.
Again, Kreia wasn't emancipating anyone. There was no revolution. She threw away the lives of her own followers just to get them in the protagonist's way. Liberation didn't matter to her. It was another lie. It was all a spite agenda. She was just another tyrant, and she'd throw you away just as quickly if not more quickly for her own selfish agenda.
And as I already said, there was no real evidence that if she got her way that life itself would survive her spite agenda, not with what is known in the setting's canon about how the Force works, tyrannical or not.
Actually, there was evidence. The Exile cut themself off from the force.
And that would totally work just fine for the entire galaxy?
I'll put it another way. Let's say there's a powerful and cruel tyrant that has command of all the grain fields across a land that uses grain as its staple crop and its primary source of food.
One day, someone who really hates that powerful and cruel tyrant orchestrates an elaborate rebellion, its forces consisting of irate farmers that used to harvest grain for the tyrant.
Then, the real master plan goes into motion, that someone starts murdering their own fellow rebellious farmers by setting the grain fields on fire and making sure to destroy each and every possible vestige that might grow back. Ostensibly, it's because the tyrant benefits from people needing grain, but lots of those farmers are killed in the massive grain field fires that keep spreading and spreading.
One person doesn't need that grain to survive; they forage.
You're saying burning all the grain is cool and good and destroying everyone's ability to ever grow grain again is cool and good because the tyrant used it as a basis for their power. And you're saying that all the people burned to death in the grain fields had it coming because they were still dependent on the grain. And the implication is foraging will totally work for absolutely everyone left that wasn't already killed in the grain fires.
You don't speak for me, and neither does Kreia. You can solipsistically say I'd be a slave to the Force (unlike you or unlike Kreia, which already has holes in it considering Kreia was still driven by negative fixation agianst the Force, still driven by its presence and reacting to it) and maybe you'd say if Kreia killed me too that was all part of her oh so heroic plan. And that's not cool to me.
I think I need to do some self-crit because I was onboard with Kreia's idea to kill the force...