The Soviet Union (especially pre-Khrushev) was an atrocious entity. This includes both Stalin, Lenin and the people who ruled in between. They are monsters.

The Soviets even collaborated with Nazis in the first two years of WW2.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

@Skiluros well, there's still an argument that they were better in that their specific goal wasn't to wipe out large parts of the population and enslave all the rest based on racial criteria. Obviously the soviets were still terrible even if they were slightly better than the absolute evil that was the Nazis.

@ukraine

[–] Skiluros 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

And the Holodomor didn't have a specific goal to killing a large part of the Ukrainian population?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

@Skiluros Possibly, there's no consensus on it being a genocide but some scholars do make the argument. But even accepting that as a given it still falls short of the Nazi goals as the scope is more limited so it doesn't really matter for what I said.

And I reiterate that still isn't to say the Soviet regime wasn't totalitarian, murderous, brutal etc. It's like choosing between the plague and cholera.

@ukraine

[–] Skiluros 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

No consensus? That's like arguing there is no consensus that the holocaust was a genocide.

The holodomor and the mass killing by both Lenin and Stalin are very much a consensus historical fact.

Tankie and russian bullshit is not relevant.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

@Skiluros you're just wrong on that one. There exists much more of a consensus on the Holocaust being a genocide than the Holodomor being one. That is if we are speaking in strictly academic terms. The general public tends to use the term much more loosely in numerous contexts...

[–] Skiluros 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

Nice try trying to portray me as the "ignorant public". There is enough serious academic consensus on the Holodomor being a Soviet-created genocide. Stalin and Lenin were mass murderers. The whole Soviet regime was a bunch of brutal authoritarians that lacked humanity. This is historical fact.

Tankie and tankie-adjacent academics need not apply.

Note the creation date of my Lemmy account. You think you're the first person I've encountered that's spewing such tankie bullshit? Why would you think your attempts at lying would work?

You do understand the tankie copytext and the pretend reasoned tone (when using accounts outside of the three tankie septic tank instances) are always very similar?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

@Skiluros you're completely misunderstanding me if you think I'm "spewing tankie bullshit". I'm not disagreeing that the Soviet regime was indeed all of those things.

I'm done here anyway. Pointless to argue about minor points with unreasonable people who think they know it all when they clearly don't.

[–] Skiluros 2 points 1 week ago

Totally, we must all bow down your intellectual might.

There is no academic consensus on the Holodomor. There is no academic consensus that Stalin killed more Soviet civilians than Hitler (with Lenin being close too). None at all!

And under no condition should we use our brains (that's the sole prerogative of ikuturso the final arbitrator of historical consensus) and recognize that tankie academics (or russians) denying the Holodomor is irrelevant to historical consensus.

Nor should we recognize that tankies denying the Holodomor are going to be using the holocaust as a cover for their murderous polemics.