this post was submitted on 19 Mar 2025
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Why do a small amount of individuals need to be the gatekeepers on so much wealth?
And what is the alternative? What would you prefer?
Capital is economic power. Should it be concentrated or not? Well, I will first say that I do not see a reasonable way to drastically reduce this inequality of power apart from socialism(as in planned economy, not welfare) which I reject for many reasons.
I would say it should be concentrated because: Most people do not have the desire or capacity to wield economic power. This has nothing to do with their intelligence or worth as an individual, but with their character mostly. It involves making many difficult decisions and significant responsibility, as you are at risk of losing your investments. You also need to show initiative which many people lack. If capital was evenly distributed most people would not have the foresight to invest but likely would just spend it to buy the things they need/want for the already mentioned lack of desire and initiative for entrepreneurship.
Also, there would be no or very little incentives to do well since you would have about the same amount of money as everyone else anyway, and this would destroy our economy, since it relies on capitalists altering the allocation of resources based on personal incentives and information granted by the market(expressed by price). If these incentive structures are weakened, this can make the economy unresponsive, which will make the resource allocation uneffective, probably even less effective than when the economy is managed by the state(socialism).
I believe you are constructing strawmen and false dichotomies. Wealth is not just economic power, it's power, period. If concentration is good, why not embrace it to the full extent? Is the current distribution of wealth appropriate (in, based on the OP, the US), or was it better 50 yrs ago?
I did not say equal distribution or no incentives. I did not argue against the entrepreneur. The current situation is extreme inequality. We are nowhere near risk of losing the incentive. This reduces quality of life for almost all due to hoarding of resources. This also stifles the entrepreneur. So much of the fruits of labor is directed towards so few.
Investment is not limited to individuals with massive wealth. There is no reason investment cannot occur by combining resources of many instead of few. By and large, large amounts of money seeks to generate more money. I believe it's far better to have broad ownership. I also believe that broad ownership results in less destructive means of generating returns. The wealthiest individuals don't act responsibly (i.e., returns supercede consideration of current and future health and well-being of humanity). People will still act that way, but I'm convinced that broad ownership will improve that aspect.
Economic power is power, yes.
I do not believe that wealth equality or equality at all is desirable.
I understand that many working class people find themselves in a precarious position nowadays. I am sympathetic, but I believe that this is better addressed by reforms to the capitalist system than socialism.
In my previous comment I already addressed why I think most people would be more comfortable and better suited having less economic power. This does not necessarily mean their quality of life is worse.
Regarding your other point: "I also believe that broad ownership results in less destructive means of generating returns. The wealthiest individuals don't act responsibly (i.e., returns supercede consideration of current and future health and well-being of humanity)." I completely disagree. The reason the "current and future health of humanity" is not accounted for is that under a market system these things are not factored into the price. So the market as a regulating tool is ignoring these issues. It would be no different if a commonly owned investment fund was investing, for instance, as it would still do things that make the most sense under a market system. This is known as a problem of externalities, and it is an argument for government intervention in the market system that I fully accept, but not for redistribution of wealth as that will likely not change anything for as long as markets are involved.
But money is power and power is expressed through regulatory capture. It's not right, but there will always be pressure towards wealth dictating the market structure and rules. Ultra wealth inequality dismantles the systems you expect to ensure externalities are considered.
In any case, yes, we agree that markets often fail on considerations of important externalities. Furthermore, we agree that government has a role in correcting that.
That is actually a good point. Unusual, but welcome.
I’ll argue! Most of this is simply wrong… but first I’m going to reject the premise of your argument.
You’re providing a false choice by suggesting that money can only be concentrated or diffused and that it can only be concentrated or diffused at the level of the single individual. You’ve placed two extremes on the table (a command economy driven by oligarchs vs a command economy driven by autocrats) and asked us to pick.
I pick neither. A command economy is not necessary to achieve reasonable societal goals, and it’s not necessary to flip the switch all the way into a 1950s Red Scare version of communism to be able to see where the economic model of unfettered capitalism breaks down.
The next problem is that you conflate the question of “how should the government collect taxes” with the question of “how should an economy operate”. Those are different questions with different answers, but the underlying principle is the same.
The government should prevent circumstances in which being an asshole is financially rewarded. The citizens should try to avoid being assholes. A civil society should correct the behavior of people that are being assholes using social pressures.
In the economic arena, that basically boils down to “not fucking over the little guy”. The government should seek to prevent circumstances where the little guy gets fucked over. The citizens should try not to fuck each other over. A civil society should shun those who violate that norm.
In the taxes arena, that basically boils down to “pay your fair share.” We all know what that looks like and feels like because we’ve had to divvy up the check after a long night of drinking. Folks with cash throw in some extra to cover their friends that might be struggling, a couple of people that are doing well might just “make the check right at the end of the night.” It works out. People know how to do this instinctively. People, by and large, know what their fair share is. Some just don’t want to pay.
In a situation where people consistently make the moral choice to not be an asshole, a lot of economic models can work. The breakdown isn’t in the economic model, it’s in the role of the civil society - society is not enforcing the “don’t be an asshole” rule. Instead, we’ve decided to idolize the assholes.
There’s not an economic model that works when everyone is trying to fuck over everyone else.
You’re focused on the wrong problem.
I said in my opinion the only feasible alternative is a command economy. I then discussed in separation from this question the issue of concentration of capital abstractly, which is what the person asked me about. I have not created a dichotomy at all.
Again, I was asked a question about the economy. Not taxes.
Finally, I will say that a society that relies on morality of individuals to function is a bad society, and our economic system pushes capitalists, especially those that find themselves in precarious postitions, to increase margins and avoid taxes. This is not surprising and not avoidable. It should be the governments responsibility to enforce taxation and patch loopholes.
Civil society requires the willing participation of the populace. It’s the best kind of society, but it’s only available to a culture that has decided not to be assholes.
I choose not to be an asshole. Even when it would be easy. Even when it would improve my life or mood or bank balance. I refuse to idolize people that are assholes. Even if they’re rich.
Even in the strictest of command economies, the opportunity to be an asshole exists. You can’t command your way into a scenario where the choice of villainy is simply unavailable. Every single one of us has to make the choice to turn away from the pull of assholery ourselves and to refuse to countenance it in others.
I still believe that we, as a species, have both the capability and the requirement to step back from that cliff. We’ve done it before. Mostly, I don’t want to live in the world your approach would create. I think the only people that would enjoy it are the folks you’ve given your free will away to.
Then why tax the rich at all? Let them choose for themselves how much they want to give.
That doesn't explain the extreme wealth disparity that can be seen from the top 0.1% and the literal rest of society. Salaries stagnate while top level profit skyrockets. The distribution is being unfair to those that also have responsibility for the success.
One of the ironies of that statement is that monopolies exist today and are some of the biggest wealth funnels on the world. Monopolies have no reason to "do well", they just do the bare minimum after they've secured their place and use their vast resources to buy or fuck the competition.
I do not care about wealth disparity. Salaries should probably rise, and reform may be needed for that to happen, but I do not care if the society is unequal.
Monopolies are doing very well in terms of market success. This is what I meant.
Ah, the fuck you I got mine animal in the wild. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
I knew it was just a matter of time until final confirmation appeared. I acknowledge and respect your honesty, even if you've just lost any other possibility of respect.
Not at all. I do care about the wellbeing of the working class, but I do not believe that equality is a value in itself. This is the point I made.
Economical equality is in itself impossible, because each person will have different needs in the end. Equity, on the other hand, understands that, but still wants to level out the playing field.
However, from that to thinking that wealth disparity/concentration isn't part of the problem is one hell of a leap, because it very much is part of the problem, and it is also stagnating growth: less money in the hands of people who will actually spend it means there's less incentive to risk starting a new business. Reduction of buying power forces smaller businesses to close/sell out, creating more concentration of wealth and power (or monopolistic advances) and spreading unemployment.
I cannot understand how you can say you care about the wellbeing of the working class while not being against, at the very least, excessive wealth concentration
I am not saying I am not against wealth concentration. I saying I am not opposed to it inherently.
You did say earlier:
Also, you seem to be clinging too hard to "i'm against equality", which is fine, as I stated in my previous comment, but your sole reasoning for that is "without an incentive to gain lots of money, people won't take risks" - which is not true at all, either, unless you assume money is the only thing that can motivate people into doing anything. Not every teacher teaches just because of money, not every medic treats people just because of money (maybe not true in USA, but more likely outside of it), not every game developer is in just for the money.
I did say that. Because I believe the decisionmaking power should be concentrated, but if it is necessary to increase the purchasing power of the populace, I am not against that.
I am simply saying equality is not a value. That means whether or not society should be equal is a practical question for me and not a moral one.
"without an incentive to gain lots of money, people won't take risks" is not my point at all. Also, what do they even risk if they are not capitalist?
Depends on what they end up doing. Could be time (most research), could be their health (physical or mental), could be their lives. You should try thinking a bit harder.
I mean they are certain they will lose their time and labour, so there is no risk involved, is it?
I literally stated that, depending on what they do, it could risk their health or lives
Well I hope they are sensible enough to not risk their lives for free.
It might be necessary to concentrate wealth and thus economic power into a smaller amount of entities but why should so few have control over these entities? If the actual employees receive more benefits from a company doing well and a board of directors is not responding to the needs of a few shareholders but to the actual market need and the need of the company employees you would still have a concentration of wealth in the form of a company but with more participants. The employees would then have the incentive to provide quality labour because that in turn makes the company do well of which they profit directly.
while i would argue with you on a few points, i just wanna say i appreciate the reasonable tone of your comment
His entire answer boils down to "people with money have proven they can handle it" which is absolute horseshit, and frankly all the pretty words sound like code for "suck it peons, you don't deserve it because you didn't figure out how to game this rigged system in your first few years of life."
0 people should have more money than they can count while other people are choosing between rent and food and medicine.
I would prefer if you did argue, but I appreciate your comment.