this post was submitted on 01 Dec 2024
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Ukraine has lost over 40% of land it seized in Russia's Kursk region, senior Kyiv military source says
Meanwhile Moscow occupies more than 20% of Ukrainian territory.
This proxy war is a very obvious failure.
Who do you think started the war lmao?
Yes, the 3 day military operation was a failure :)
It's never too late to rejoin reality.
Ukraine front could 'collapse' as Russia gains accelerate, experts warn
You didn't answer the question.
NATO expansion has no consequences right?
ok tankie
What expansion? The last two countries joined as result of Russian aggression. The ones before joined because they themselves had experienced that only the membership in a strong alliance can potentially safe them from annexation (Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Poland [the last after a deal with literally Hitler]). And once again tell me, why would anyone be afraid of a defensive alliance growing when you don't intend to invade said countries?
Don't want to invade your neighbour? Then their NATo-membership is not a problem, hell how about trying to join yourselves?
You went full circle jerk implying no expansion exists, but then immediately contradicting yourself.
Where is the contradiction?
Doubting the expansion of NATO.
Hypothetical question after which context is provided, "when you don't want to invade them?" Asking a hypothetical question is not contradictory to doubting the expansion.
I don't understand why you quoted that.
You went from implying no expansion has occurred, to implying such expansion is a good thing without any consequences, to finally preaching that all who hear your 'wisdom' should try joining NATO themselves.
Are these the differing stages of grief before acceptance of failure?
I was saying that there was no expansion before Russia declared war in violation of all international laws and treaties, and in violation of the treaty Russia signed that guarantees Ukrainian independence.
Afterwards NATO grew, whether you want to call to expansion which implies that it is the goal of NATO to grow and threaten its neighbours or you just call it grow which reflects the reality of countries voluntarily joining.
And my comparison was that you cannot threaten your neighbours with a potential war and then expect them to just await their fate without resistance. They have the right to join an alliance as has every sovereign state. They have the right to chose the political system they want as does every sovereign state.
But NO ONE has the right to change the outline of borders by means of war. The world has lost a few million people so that everyone should have learned that lesson. Russia was apparently on the toilet at the time
So it's bad when Russia does it but the US is correct in backing Israel changing its borders through imperialism?
No hypocrisy detected by you?
They never even mentioned Israel, you just decided that was their stance so you could call them a hypocrite
Like xor said, you seem to have quite the understanding of my views on topics I've not even discussed. Also whataboutism and gaslighting - have you perhaps run out of arguments? [Edit: after revisiting the thread, I've realised that you never even wrote an argument. Gaslighting and whataboutism is the only thing you do. And if you were to count them as arguments, you're clearly argumenting in bad faith.]
Take a step back and ask yourselves in whose interest you're argumenting. I myself am arguing in my own interest that is perhaps selfish. Yet based on that interest I believe it is correct to say Ukraine needs to not lose and better yet win. Otherwise Russia set the precedent that war is once again ultima ratio of diplomacy. Something the world more or less unitedly felt to be outdated. Yes, countries have used wars to push interests in other countries, mostly to change the leadership (most famously the USA and the USSR, but also China, France, the UK). No major power tried to move borders prior to Russia's illegal attack on Ukraine.
As for Israel my interest lies in lasting peace and to ensure that there will always be a place where Jews are welcome. To that end the war needs to end now. Israel mustn't further fan the flames. The surrounding countries must find a way to live in peace with Israel. Israel must revise their constitution to allow for actually equal rights of any non-Jewish people, ideally by forming a state union with Palestine with equal representation of the latter. And such a country should be formed in the same mindset as post-war Germany.
But saying all that, there's a massive difference in complexity between the two. The Gaza war has a convoluted mess of history to it. Solving that is not only challenging but necessary to achieve even a semblance of peace that has any chance of lasting. The war in Ukraine is much simpler. There's not even a remote semblance of justification to it. It is literally just: Russia must stop the war and attempt to reverse the damages caused as far as that is possible.
And out of interest for future World peace, the ones responsible need to face legal consequences by a tribunal that is impartial and non-partisan.
This statement betrays an ignorance of history including military efforts by western nations to create the state of Israel.
You can still delete this blatant misinformation.
This place already exists in countless cities around the world outside of Israel. Many cities are home to both thousands of Jews and Muslims who get along fine in tightly packed urban environments.
Why falsely imply that Israelis have equal agency compared to the desperately poor they occupy?
You show no understanding of Slavic history, nor geopolitical balance including the significance of buffer states. Otherwise you would not boldly oversimplify an equally nuanced conflict.
Now you are sort of arguing. Frankly though, I've tried to engage in a debate with you, but if all you do after you've finally put forth something of an argument is to be condescending, then I am going to stop this here. You could have elaborated on your arguments but you instead chose to use them in attempt to insult me.
So now that all bets are of, you are an apologetic shill for a dictator and you seem to have fallen for all of his blatant lies. But yes sure play the old western imperialism fiddle - that's all you apparently can do.
Your inability to respond to even a single point is little surprise.
You've not made any points. You have just stated for my knowledge to insufficient. Do you expect me to counter that? That is simply a waste of effort if you don't even try to put forth arguments.
"Your inability to see past propaganda and to Folter out unnecessary supposed history and cultural peculiarities is the reason you're completely lulled in by Russian propaganda".
There, now I've done the same, respond then
Would you rather discuss the weather?
Q.e.d. you're not discussing anyway so what's the point
Words words words
Who is "you"? I didn't make any such claim. I commented to the conversation that you had with someone else, because I really didn't see any contradiction.
So I certainly didn't imply any of that.
I fail to see how the other person implied it is a good thing. The other person implied it is inconsequential if you don't intend to attack. That isn't good. Whether or not, that statement is accurate, is a different discussion, then whether or not a person implied that it is good.
I don't understand what failure you are talking about but clearly you aren't mistaken in with whom you are talking. But given what you wrote and based on that your understanding of the situation, I don't understand where you see grief in what you think, was written.
I mean, it is valid perspective. You can doubt the existence while welcoming the existence and encouraging it. E.g. i doubt that there is a god, but I think the existence of a god would be good and I would welcome someone to be that god.
Again, I don't see them saying what you think they said but if they did, it would be a valid perspective.
The point is not to hold more Russian land than Russia holds Ukrainian land (lmao). It's to deplete their reserves and destroy their economy - which has been working out well, all things considered. You can regain every meter of occupied territory without firing a shot if the Russian state is brought to its knees.
The same talking points (propaganda) that falsely predicted a Russian economic collapse within moments of western sanctions when the war started years ago.
Imagine not being a simp to western hegemony and not wanting humans to suffer in any country.
Nobody predicted an immediate collapse. Stop making things up. One look at Russia's economy shows that the sanctions are highly effective nonetheless.
Imagine being a simp for a mafia state run by the richest man on the planet hellbent on destroying a sovereign nation at the cost of his own people. Doesn't get much shittier than this, doesn't it?
I can safely dismiss your opinions now.
Let's be real, here. You automatically dismiss all opinions not fed to you by an autocrat.
Fucking troll.
Putin said he was gonna roll over Ukraine, and we all thought he was gonna roll over Ukraine.
What has been shown is that Putin and his war machine is a fuckin bitch.
Ukraine has been going toe to toe with Russia for fucking years now.
Sure Ukraine has been propped up, but Russian has had to empty prisons and make deals with Iran and North Korea for military aid. Talk about the Axis of evil clowns.
I have almost no respect for Russian leadership. Almost less respect than I do for my next president.
What it has been is a failure to convince smaller nations that they don't need nukes. Great job everyone.
no, that's been working out just fine, the question is wether it was a good thing
spoiler
it wasn'tSomething has gone wonky with my internal parser. Can't figure out what point you're making. Might double back after another coffee, but I'd appreciate if you could clarify?
I mean robbing smaller countries of their nukes has been working great, I just consider it a bad thing
Cheers yeah same page
It's not a proxy war if the primary aggressor is the great power - that's just a war of aggression
Imagine thinking you can singlehandedly redefine proxy wars to fit your narrow definition.
[Sorry, you just committed an act of Wrongthink™. Currently supporting Nato, western expansion, and Neoliberalism are the Popular and Correct Opinions™. Continued offences will result in being labeled a Russian bot by smug white Liberals.]
Western expansion is when Russia expands westward and performs genocide on Ukrainians, huh?
Its when we put missles near moscow, overthrow nearby governments (color revolutions), and then get shocked when that leads to war. Im not saying its justified but its not shocking either, imagine if china overthrew the Canadian government and started shipping them weapons.
The Cold War has been over for some thirty fucking years.
Jesus fucking Christ.
That's a very reductive description of the orange revolution and euromaidan, though.
In both cases, the US didn't come in and overthrow the Ukrainian government, there was no assassination, no military coup. At a stretch the most you could reasonably argue the US was involved was egging them on.
It was just an enormous number of Ukrainians protesting the abuse of their political system.
The first time, because the president ordered the kidnapping of a journalist ON VIDEO (whose body was then found, decapitated) then attempted to rig the election in favour of his successor - this resulted in massive protests until the election was re-run (this time with international observers) at the demand of their own supreme court.
The latter because the president ran on a platform of EU alignment, then immediately betrayed the people who elected him by doing the exact opposite in order to placate Russia. He was then removed by parliament, who had a legal right to do exactly that.
Note how, both times, the government was removed, not by a couple, but by the legitimate political institutions of the country.