this post was submitted on 10 Jul 2023
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Technology

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[–] [email protected] 149 points 1 year ago (6 children)

I was right in the edge of Gen Z and Millennial and grew up being the family’s tech kid. It still astounds me now that my younger sisters don’t know how to even look for solutions. They just get me. Having moved out I get texts and calls sometimes. I’ve had to explain that using a computer is a skill that is learnable. I didn’t learn by going to someone else. I had to learn how to learn. That’s the skill we should be teaching kids. Not how to solve the problems, but how to FIND the solution to problems.

[–] [email protected] 83 points 1 year ago (4 children)

As someone also near the border between Gen Z and Millennial, I relate a lot to this comment. I was also the family tech kid, and since like middle school I've always told people "I'm not good with computers, I just know how to use a search engine"

My "computer literacy" is literally just basic research skills; knowing how to formulate a web search and how to identify bad sources.

[–] [email protected] 51 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Right! This is why I say it has more to do with being stubborn than being smart. If you're determined to find a solution and you're half decent at research and following instructions, you can figure a lot out, but people treat it like you invented the thing with some magical knowledge that they could never possess.

[–] [email protected] 34 points 1 year ago

You've just articulated a feeling I've had most of my life, but couldn't have described better.

Solving trivial problems for people they could easily do themselves if they just muddled through the work of it. Then act like I'm a genius, when it's really just 'stubbornness' and refusing to admit i can't figure it out.

Thanks for that.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago

On this subject, my personal definition for millennial is someone in the age bracket where they had to teach themselves how to use windows as a kid

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[–] gammasfor 30 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think we can blame the education system. At some point it became solely about passing some arbitrary threshold of students with high exam scores rather than about teaching students how to get by in life.

End result was an education system that simply teaches kids how to pass exams rather than basic life skills like critical thinking.

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[–] [email protected] 25 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The late 90s Gen Z/Millennial DMZ is a painful place to exist. Constant and mandatory tech support.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The ones that is blamed for the ills of society by both the baby boomers and younger gen zs

[–] [email protected] 25 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Yep. I was born 1998. To Millennials, I'm a tiny baby Gen Z, to Gen Zs, I may as well be a boomer. It's odd.

Growing up poor confuses things even more, because I have more in common with people born late 80s/early 90s than with people born only a few years after me. My first game console was a SNES and we had a VCR until we got a PS2, and kept using it well after.

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I'm also between gen Z and millennial and was the family's tech kid and still get calls. Are you me? :D

Just yesterday I got a call asking how to select all images in a directory... And then another call about how to get those images to Google Drive, which is literally just drag and drop... And one of the people involved was my gen Z younger sister.

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[–] [email protected] 70 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Man, I didn't realize that article was written in 2013, it could've been written today, and it still would've been true. I think one of the biggest contributions to the tech illiteracy of people is, 1. Schools don't really teach you about that kind of stuff (in my experience, or unless you take a special course) and 2. Everything is basically done for you now, its incredibly easy to do anything basic on computers.

[–] [email protected] 39 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

So when the author says it's the 30-50 year olds that know how to use computers, today it's the 40-60 year olds. I'd say it goes older than that.

One thing that used to bug me on reddit was youngsters going on about how over-50s wouldn't know how to use a computer. That hasn't been the case for decades now.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago (3 children)

It's actually the 8-80 year olds that don't know how to use computers.

Most people don't know. They just know how to use a handful of programs. But the vast majority of them don't understand the basic concepts behind them. Things like files and directories are nebulous at best.

Does it matter? A little, because so much stuff revolves around computers nowadays. Which means that they don't really understand the world they're navigating daily. OTOH, they live perfectly well as they are, so it clearly doesn't matter to them.

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[–] garwalut 68 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I was showing an intern how to install a software the intern needed. The computer setup was a laptop with two external monitors. After we installed the software from one of the external monitors, the intern asked “so will this install the software in the other screen?” I was flabbergasted.

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[–] [email protected] 58 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm pushing 50 and when people ask me how I know so much about computers, my first comment is that I had to program my first computer for it to do anything.

My second is that I actively sought to learn, and you can too.

Later in life Linux played a huge role in understanding how these contraptions work. Ironically, I'm a human factors engineer, so I'm also guilty of creating part of the problem. User interfaces that "just work"... Until they don't.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I had to program my first computer for it to do anything.

Sadly, most people have no grasp what that even means. I've had adults think that means I "downloaded something into the computer" and then it worked.

It was around that time I just stopped talking to anyone outside of my geek circle about anything technical. Best to play dumb.

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[–] [email protected] 53 points 1 year ago (4 children)

I am 28 and i have always thought that the as long as you know how to operate a search engine you can find out what you need. The reason computer people know computers better than you do is because computer people can use a search engine better than you

[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago (8 children)

Good thing search engines are optimized for advertising instead of utility!

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[–] [email protected] 52 points 1 year ago (3 children)

...and the blog owner can't use Let's Encrypt.

[–] [email protected] 31 points 1 year ago (4 children)

And he thinks TL;DRs are for kids with ADHD. Totally egotistic. I'm sure his whole point can be heavily TL;DR'd.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

And after that he goes directly into a tedious story that does more to make me dislike him than actually build up the point he's trying to make. I agree with the basic premise of the article, but the endless passive aggressive anecdotes really don't help.

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[–] [email protected] 23 points 1 year ago

Ask them what https means and why it is important

Ironic

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[–] [email protected] 48 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Website: coding2learn

http site only

Lmao

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[–] [email protected] 47 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I love how everyone is acting like this is a new thing. People have never been able to use computers.

[–] [email protected] 47 points 1 year ago (1 children)

My wife and I were just talking about this the other day.
I'm not in IT but I work as an industrial maintenance electrician, and knowing how computers work solves more problems than people realize!

[–] kakes 33 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's so frustrating when people are like "Well I don't need to know how computers work."

Every aspect of our lives is governed by computers in one way or another. I can't imagine not being curious to know how they work.

[–] cyanarchy 24 points 1 year ago (7 children)

People feel the same way about cars, electricity, food preservation. People's lives are interdependent on massively specialized technical disciplines and most of them couldn't care less. I understand that the amount of specialization that goes into some topics means you can't be an expert on all of these subjects, but some people just could not give a single shit how any of it works, and do not have any understanding of the ways in which it might stop working.

I've come to greatly resent any sort of technology or design being dismissed as "magic", because I've met too many people who mean it literally.

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[–] whosdadog 43 points 1 year ago (1 children)

At my job I have to explain to fully grown adults where the Start menu is on a regular basis.

[–] [email protected] 27 points 1 year ago (2 children)

To be fair it doesn't help that Microsoft keeps moving the damn thing.

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[–] [email protected] 43 points 1 year ago (3 children)

They even know how to use Word and PowerPoint and Excel

Oh how poorly has this sentence aged in the last 10 years. There's another nice article about this phenomenom of kids not understanding folder structure here.

Back in uni I was the smart guy whom everyone would ask for help, both with tech and non-tech issues:

"Hey nudny ekscentryk, my phone won't connect to the campus WiFi". Oh yeah that happens I said, you probably didn't fill in the login credentials correctly. This was actually rather tricky, because it used [email protected] for logging in and required changing the default password at least once since registering, for database reasons I guess. They tried it, didn't work. Are you sure you know your password? No, they don't. Let's check in their password manager. They have an iPhone, which I haven't used since I indefinitely switched to Android a couple years back. Took me 20 seconds to find the password manager in Settings though. The password is not there. "Oh you mean my university password? It's in my notes". We go to Notes app. There's nothing here, do you use Evernote or something else entirely for that?. They use a fucking Google Docs document for notes. It's not very handy is it? Like you have to zoom in to edit, it's all clumsy because it's a document and the text's formatted weirdly. Not a problem to them, because "well at least it syncs so I can access it from my iPad." Okay, whatever. It's not like your built-in iOS password manager doesn't sync. We managed to connect to the WiFi network. "could you also do that for the WiFi in the other building?". But it's the same network, it will connect automatically to either. They know better: "nah it can't be, the range is too far". I explain it's not the same hotspot but the credentials are shared and in fact since it's eduroam, a global network, it will work in pretty much any university campus in the world automatically. "wow that is crazy, will that also work for my iPad". Well if you log in with the same credentials. "could you do it for me? i'll fetch my iPad". No, I've shown you how to do it, you can do it yourself now. They can't use a computer.

A different time I was proofreading a classmate's thesis, see quadruple x's next to each heading. hey, what's up with these? I ask her, she replies: "oh I put them here so I can easily find each heading when formatting text. If I make any changes I can just search for " and it will automatically let me go through all headings easily without scrolling manually :)". I open the Navigator (I use LO Writer) and it's empty. She wrote an 80-page document without ever using Styles. All headings, title page etc. were formatted manually. I enable the Formatting Marks. Holy shit. She uses spaces and tabs to move text around. Loads of line breaks to move text to the next page. I could tell the document looks off but I never though this was due to so poor editing skills. Or rather lack thereof. You know you're doing everything the hard way here?. "What do you mean?". There are tools for all that you've done here. Like you can use Styles to mark headings and then edit them in bulk. You can add automatic numbering, which will later let you create an index within a second. To move next to the next page you can use page breaks. "Okay cool but this is how I do it". Alright, then you are just giving yourself extra work, what's the point of not doing this correctly once and then never bothering with formatting ever again?. "Could you do it for me?". I can show you all these tools but I won't be doing that for you, as I'm already proofreading your paper factually. "Okay whatever". Guess what, she never bothered and when handing it the finished paper (probably around 120 pages), her instructor made her do it anyway. She asked me to help her with that. I said no, because I offered help before and she didn't bother. After submitting the paper, the reviewer returned it and made her re-do all citations in an, at least, consecutive style. "Oh fuck that guy why would he give me so much work!? You know how many hours it took me to insert all these in here.". It was around 280 citations total, out of 30 different pieces of writing. She obviously did all of them manually by typing out footnotes. You know there are bibliography managers which do it automatically in a consecutive style for you?. "Will it automatically fix what he asks?". Well, no, because (again) you originally did it incorrectly. This one issue was even stranger for me than her not using styles for formatting: one year later we both attended a "methodology of scientific publishing" class, where they introduced us to Google Scholar, Zotero, Impact Factor and other stuff she could use now. We even had a take-home project to create a bibliography in Zotero and she did it (with online help). But she didn't bother to retain it in her skillset, so when needing to actually apply that skill, she wasn't even aware this was exactly what she learned a year earlier. Crazy; she can't use a computer.

[–] [email protected] 28 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

https://xkcd.com/763/

But forreal, I think it's really interesting how people who aren't familiar with computers never think to themselves, "there has to be a better way to do this."

Like, I'm an EE, and electrical engineering software is notoriously terrible (I like to joke it's because it's written by EEs). Even knowing that, if I run into a problem where I want to accomplish something where the default option is to click and drag something 200 times, the first thing I do is google "how do thing Altium." Sometimes the answer really is to do it the hard way, but I at least check first.

Edit: I'm just remembering a story where I was asked to review a PCB and schematic design for a client. I think they had hired like someone's kid to do the design work to save money as there were problems all over the place.

Probably the most glaring was with the component markers or "reference designators." In Eagle CAD, when you place a component (resistor, chip, etc), it comes with a little label to be printed on the PCB. This label has a default location next to the part and moves with the part, but you can't move it relative to the part without using a separate tool to allow that. This is important when designs get dense as labels might overlap each other or other parts.

Any way, rather than searching for how to move reference designators relative to components (it's called the "Smash" tool), this kid deleted all reference designators from the design and just manually placed labels. That means that when you move a component, you have to manually move the label. Also, normally, reference designators are hi-lighted when you select components so you know which one goes with which component. These manual labels had no association with the parts. The only way to tell if a label was next to the right part was to select the component to figure out its name, and then visually scan the labels to look for the one with a matching name.

There were hundreds of parts on the PCB. This was $1500 software, and they assumed that this was the correct user flow. Place parts, delete labels linked to parts, make new labels not linked to parts.

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[–] [email protected] 41 points 1 year ago (8 children)

https://www.pcgamer.com/students-dont-know-what-files-and-folders-are-professors-say/

Students don't know what files and folders are, professors say A whole generation has grown up with powerful search functions, and don't think about computers the same way.

Apparently this has become a widespread problem in colleges starting in the last decade.

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[–] [email protected] 41 points 1 year ago (8 children)

Im a 6th semester software engineer student, back in first semester I had classmates that didn't even know how to zip a folder

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[–] [email protected] 35 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (8 children)

Computers, math, cooking, cleaning, exercise, eating properly.

It's just another in a long list of things that some grown-ass adults act like is somehow beyond them because that's easier than trying.

Definitely not unique to any generation.

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[–] [email protected] 34 points 1 year ago (4 children)
  • Dump on tl;drs
  • Subject your readers to a minimally-edited 4000 word rant

You get to pick one.

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[–] [email protected] 33 points 1 year ago

There seems to be a lack of good basic computer science education unfortunately. Schools and so on never caught up with the speed of technological advance. And back when I was in school, teachers taught things like "How do I use formulas in MS Excel" in computer science. It's probably still that way, so it's not neutral at all, instead you're learning how to use specific software products (often, Microsoft's). So relying on school education alone may be hopeless. But you can always learn for yourself or from others.

[–] [email protected] 32 points 1 year ago

I'm seeing this with my oldest niece and nephew. They're okay with navigating their android tablets; but if you ask either them of troubleshoot a problem on the PC, they both just end up coming to me. Neither of them know how to research solutions either. Ugh.

[–] [email protected] 28 points 1 year ago (1 children)

TL;DR? Why not just go watch another five second video of a kitten with its head in a toilet roll, or a 140 character description of a meal your friend just stuffed in their mouth. "nom nom". This blog post is not for you.

Well played Blogger. Well played.

[–] professor 29 points 1 year ago (1 children)

To me, it just came across as petulant. Ironically, the "conclusion" was basically a TLDR for anyone interested.

[–] [email protected] 25 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Way before "tldr" became something on the internet, research papers had an abstract and news articles had a lead that tells you what the article is about.

I think this article is very good but replacing the abstract/lead by a snug paragraph is not a good idea.

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[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago (2 children)

she maintains a facade of politeness around them, while inwardly dismissing them as too geeky to interact with

Reeks of “incel” attitude.

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago

Can be generalized to "nobody understands science and technology anymore". I can understand those who went offline and are not looking back.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago (5 children)

was teaching my 3yo mouse and keyboard this week, and he had some difficulty because he is already accustomed to touchscreen. to be fair, toddlers touch everything, its intuitive. regardless, he was pointing and clicking like a pro after afer minutes.
now, when to introduce the cli...?

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