It doesn't seem fair to call Hamas terrorists when every peaceful form of resistance against the occupiers has been criminalized.
this post was submitted on 04 Nov 2023
31 points (76.3% liked)
World News
32304 readers
359 users here now
News from around the world!
Rules:
-
Please only post links to actual news sources, no tabloid sites, etc
-
No NSFW content
-
No hate speech, bigotry, propaganda, etc
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
The quote from the article has it right: "They are human beings. They have bad leaders, like us. We can throw away the leaders on both sides and make peace in a matter of minutes".
Hamas and Likud are the instigators of this, and they actually both want to entirely destroy the other side rather than a peaceful resolution. To quote Hamas' 2017 charter: "Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea" (noting that means the complete destruction of Israel). To quote Netanyahu: "Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian State has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring of money to Hamas... This is part of our strategy".
Deliberately killing civilians is never okay (which both sides are doing - see the article, and Hamas are safe in their tunnels and it has become a trope that after killing many civilians Likud people just automatically claim it was Hamas HQ, with no credibility), and neither side has a right to target civilians.
What should Hamas have done instead?
You mean there is no alternative to killing civilians at gunpoint, including children, filming the whole thing and publishing it online? Hamas doesn't want a two-state solution, and this kind of reaction from Israel is music to their years. It will keep on fueling hate for years to come.
I mean I want you to give an alternative. Name it. What should Hamas have done? Name literally one fucking thing they could do.
Also, the two state "solution" is a mirage and it never actually was on the table. Israel has no interest in that, which is why they've been squeezing Gaza to death for years and allowing settlers to steal more land in the West Bank. Get real.
An actual solution is a single multi-ethnic state, from the river to the sea. Settlers don't get to steal land just because the British partitioned it and gave it to them.
Gaza isn't occupied for almost 20 years. The only issue Gaza had is no freedom of air and maritime space, and no freedom of travel outside of Gaza, all those authority is oversee by Israel. What hamas can do is, with the help of Qatar and other islamic world that understand their issue, secure a diplomatic ties with Egypt and open up the rafah crossing, secure funding in the mean of loan and build facilities(electricity, water) to become more independent from Israel, have a force strong enough to prevent Israel attack, and stop lobbing rocket at Israel.
Of course, this will face strong objection from Netanyahu because he's a bitch, but at least then it's very clear the issue lies with Israel, not Gaza. You gotta show the world you're willing to build up, and willing to respect the Greenline that you say you want Israel to respect.
This, of course, is oversimplifying the politics between Hamas vs Fatah and Hamas vs the west, and the hatred that's swelling up for the last few decades or so, but at least it's a good base to stand on.
Israel tightly controls all imports and exports, has its water controlled, it's electricity controlled, it's fuel controlled, it's food imports counted down the the calories, can not access things like concrete or steel or other construction materials. It's a concentration camp. It's a settler colonial occupation even if the colonizers don't set foot inside the ghetto.
And How is Hamas supposed to form ties with Egypt? They'd have to outbid Israel. What do they have to offer?
Meanwhile, Israel is working to normalize relationships with all the surrounding countries so Hamas can't have diplomatic ties with anyone! That's one of the reasons this attack happened - normalization has been defeated.
It's fair to call them terrorists when they attack civilians.
And don't give me the "what about Israel" bullshit. They can be terrorists, too, it doesn't make Hamas suddenly freedom fighters for murdering children. A terrorist is a terrorist.
They earn that name when they kill civilians deliberately.
Inb4 "israel", yes fuck israel as well.
One man's terrorist yadda yadda. No. These guys fucking suxk. They aren't fighting for Palestine any more than isis fought for Iraq. Israel's bullshit certainly explains why hamas has a lot of Palestinian support; they have no other option, but don't pretend they aren't terrorists.
Can you be a bit more precise? What makes them terrorists?
From what I understand, rebelling against an oppressor (as a last resort) is a U.N. recognized human right.
Aiming guns at soft targets and slaughtering them makes them, by definition, terrorists.
TBF Hamas is definitely a terrorist organization, especially with the murder of civilians on October 7. They're fighting Israeli oppression, but calling them not terrorists would be like calling the IRA in the Troubles not terrorists.
This recap of Oct 7 makes it seem like most of the deaths were against police/military. Many of the civilians deaths, especially at the rave, are reportedly from indiscriminate IDF fire.
https://new.thecradle.co/articles/what-really-happened-on-7th-october
If Israel keeps bombing Gaza, they'll eventually kill all the hostages.
To them it's a feature and not a bug.
"compared to our previous battle, the warzone is 4 times the size, 16 times the casualty."
Todd, please...
The hostages might be beside the point. This article from 2014 about a different IDF operation made an interesting point that the Israeli govt conducted a massive operation to "rescue" hostages when it turns out they actually knew all along that they were already dead.
Via @gladflag
The hostages are likely with Hamas in the tunnels under Gaza. The bombings by the Israeli military under the orders of Netanyahu's Likud are not likely to kill either Hamas or the hostages, but rather they kill civilians and destroy civilian property on the surface. They are deliberate massacres of ordinary Palestinian citizens.
Likud (and its collaborators) and Hamas are the evil forces here - both sides are murdering many civilians for each Hamas / Likud / IDF death.
From the released hostages we know they're being kept in homes, actually. It's why so many have already been killed by Israel.
This has moved beyond hostages, Hamas and self defense. We’re in dangerous immoral waters now.