this post was submitted on 05 Sep 2023
262 points (98.2% liked)

Programming

17503 readers
12 users here now

Welcome to the main community in programming.dev! Feel free to post anything relating to programming here!

Cross posting is strongly encouraged in the instance. If you feel your post or another person's post makes sense in another community cross post into it.

Hope you enjoy the instance!

Rules

Rules

  • Follow the programming.dev instance rules
  • Keep content related to programming in some way
  • If you're posting long videos try to add in some form of tldr for those who don't want to watch videos

Wormhole

Follow the wormhole through a path of communities [email protected]



founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 120 points 1 year ago (3 children)

If root can't do anything it wants, is it truly root?

[–] [email protected] 72 points 1 year ago (3 children)
[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 year ago
[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago
[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Perhaps LineageOS could help. Or GrapheneOS.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What is root if not supervisor persevering?

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 61 points 1 year ago (2 children)

If I don't have the ability to control which CAs I trust, things become useless fast. This is why I fully ditched chomeOS.

[–] [email protected] 77 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Google: wants to push their browser based DRM, to which they would inevitably be the ultimate controller of, in the name of "safety".

Also Google: intentionally kneecaps the existing certificate system which is the main safety system of the web.

Gee, I wonder if the two are connected.

[–] [email protected] 33 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I heard this on the radio yesterday. Secretly ruthless is a good way to describe Google.

SHAPIRO: OK. So big picture on this anniversary, 25 years in, if you could describe Google's legacy in a sentence, what would that be?

PATEL: Secretly ruthless.

SHAPIRO: Oh, that's rough. Wow. Secretly ruthless - that's even less than a sentence. Give me a little bit more. Why do you say secretly ruthless?

PATEL: Google has convinced everyone that it is this incredibly sincere and earnest company - that it's just a bunch of goofballs making cool things. That is true. But I think if we just paid a little more attention to where Google's money comes from - and it is almost entirely advertising - I think we would be able to see the company and its influence a little bit more clearly. But the truth is, it is an utterly ruthless advertising company that is very, very, very successful at delivering results to its clients.

SHAPIRO: But Nilay, you didn't mention how cute the Google doodles are.

PATEL: Yeah, the - I understand. They're very cute.

https://www.npr.org/2023/09/04/1197548359/the-verges-nilay-patel-talks-googles-legacy-and-its-future-on-its-25th-anniversa

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

I freaking love the new updates!!

I love it when I can't manage my own SSL certificates, even as root

I love not being to use the fucking McDonalds app on a rooted device

Web environment integrity is so great! It's incredible that my rooted tablet will be locked out of lots of websites since I'm not using AUTHORIZED chrome on an AUTHORIZED device

It's so awesome that adblock will stop working in most Chromium-based browsers

LIKE WTF I JUST GOT A PIXEL NOW YOU NEED TO RUIN IT?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This is very true, although from what I’ve seen both sides are correct. They give very little guidance to any of the stuff they put out, see killing off stadia or how badly they have been messing up chromeOS and just let their engineers do what they want until they lose their way then it falls off. They just don’t care about that because the ad money keeps coming regardless. It seems almost like a result of the fact that google just hires talent so no one else can have it and then they just let them do whatever they want. It’s almost like there are two googles.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Honestly the entire certificate system is a fraud. You can see just how vulnerable it is with the recent Microsoft vulnerability

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm ootl on this one - what happened?

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Microsoft has been signing stuff that is being used maliciously.

Plus they have has their keys stolen to create malicious stuff...

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago

And there we go. I was trying to figure out the "why?" beyond "think of the children it's secure!" and that's the part that makes it make sense.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

This will also make https filtering that is used by ad blocking apps impossible since you need to trust a certificate in order for it to work

[–] [email protected] 51 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I learned that Android was not open under my personal definition of "open" right from the outset, because there was no programmatic access to telephony. My first project was to build an on-board answering machine with call screening capabilities.

I used an answering machine on my landline to avoid paying for caller id and voicemail and wanted to do the same with my cellphone. I was very disappointed to learn that this was not possible, at least with my skillset.

I knew that things were going the wrong way when my Tasker script to manage airplane mode stopped working when Android required locked it away. My use case there was that lack of connectivity at the gym and at home meant that connection attempts were draining my battery and heating up the phone. Now, of course, Android does a much better job of that particular task on its own, but it still makes me cranky. :)

Everything that has happened since has only cemented my opinion that Android is not actually an open platform. I do see many of the changes as potentially valuable security measures for the masses, but I wish that it wasn't quite so difficult for a power user to use the power of the little computer we carry in our pockets.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

On my last android device I didn't need root at all, but on my current one Google has gimped the OS so much that root access is the only way to have any kind of ownership of the device.

Even just the fact that Google's "backup" system (which does not handle app data the last time I checked) depends on the cloud, instead of iTunes that has been able to do a full system backup to your own computer for YEARS (in addition to icloud), is honestly a big joke in my eyes.

Everything that has happened since has only cemented my opinion that Android is not actually an open platform. I do see many of the changes as potentially valuable security measures for the masses, but I wish that it wasn't quite so difficult for a power user to use the power of the little computer we carry in our pockets.

I feel exactly the same way

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Their backup system does handle app data, but only if the app does not opt out of it. Which is an incredibly stupid system. It's my phone, if I tell it to backup up my data it better back up everything. I don't care if some banking app thinks it's too good to be backed up.

However, as a long time rooted phone user I know that the rooting community is always 2 steps ahead of Google so most likely nothing will change.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] ChickenAndRice 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's open as in "look but don't touch"

As a Pixel user, I'm looking into either Graphene or CalyxOS

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

It's absolutely open source, but you might rather be limited in your software freedom.

[–] [email protected] 41 points 1 year ago (3 children)

If root can’t manage these, then who can and how?

[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

PUID:GUID::-1:-1

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago

Time for superroot!

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I would like to speak to the manager!

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago

Ah yes, the karen account!

[–] [email protected] 38 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I already hated Android 12 for overhauling the aesthetic for the worse: making volume sliders obscenely wide, making the notification shade just an over-enlarged mess, and the half-assed implementation of Material You. On my Pixel 3 that I used at the time, this change alone made me root a phone for the first time just to fix all of it.

Two updates later and once again Google fucks up something that was perfectly fine before and turns me off from their operating system yet again. While I'm nowhere close to using an iPhone, I may just use GrapheneOS if I have to switch to a phone that comes with Android 14+ out of the box.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago

An update in the last year added a "feature" where, when I search something, if my query is even vaguely close to the name of an app on my phone, Android will open that app instead of doing my search. I, for the life of me, haven't been able to figure out how to disable it. That alone made me hate Android.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

From an IT perspective with little context on this change other than what's in the article, if there's no way to import your own certs using an MDM, this change is terrible for businesses.

You need custom certs for all kinds of things. A company's test servers often don't use public CA certs because it's expensive (or the devs are too lazy to set up Let's Encrypt). So you import a central private CA cert to IT-managed devices so browsers and endpoints don't have a fit.

For increased network security, private CAs are used for SSL decryption to determine what sites devices are going to and to check for malware embedded in pages. In order to conduct SSL decryption, you need your own private CA cert for decrypting and re-encrypting web content. While this is on the decline because of pinned certs being adopted by big websites, it's still in use for any sites you can get away with. You basically kill any network-level security tools that are almost certainly enabled on the VPN/SASE used to access private test sites.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This article isn't clear on one question: Are users still able to add new trusted authorities? I have a custom CA installed so as to be able to access self-hosted https services inside my home network. Given that Android now prevents you from accessing sites with an untrusted/self-signed cert, I need this feature.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 year ago (1 children)

System Certificates

Aka, you cannot untrust google's certs. And google can do whatever the fuck they want, and you cannot change or alter that behaviour.

So, if google wants to publish a root CA, that allows them to act on behalf of any other domain, they can do that. etc.

[–] Jaysue 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Sounds like a powerful tool for law enforcement

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Super handy for if a certificate gets out and needs to be revoked.

Idiots.

[–] [email protected] 30 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Maybe read the article and not look like an idiot. All they did was move the certificates into a signed package that is updated through Google Play. They can revoke certs even faster now because it doesn't require a system update.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago

Cool, so I can’t revoke the certs myself? Still bad.

I can’t add my own for testing? Still bad.

They manage it via an app that I can’t change at all? Still bad.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

What if you can't access gplay for various reasons? (Non-stock OS, geographic lockout, etc etc)

Are you just straight-up boned when 14 rolls around? Genuinely curious

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

I hope that on LineageOS that you will still be able to manage your own certificates

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago

IMO this isn't a real "solution" to the problem here, but this article states Android 14 also allows Google to manage device CAs remotely and push updates via Google Play, and goes into detail about how that mechanism is poorly documented publicly and is basically only an option for Google themselves, not any third party device administrators.

Google can easily claim that all security concerns are handled by their own management while continuing to deny access to all third parties to actually handle that responsibility themselves if desired.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

I mean thats what its mainly for? To quickly update CAs without needing to do it as a system update that the vendor needs to vet first

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago

Time to buy a pinephone.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

I'm pretty sure I can't even connect to my university's network without installing a custom certificate.

What brainlet at Google thought this was a good idea?

load more comments
view more: next ›