If AI is so good at coding - where are the open source contributions? : programming

[–] [email protected] 14 points 6 days ago

FTA: The user considered it was the unpaid volunteer coders’ “job” to take his AI submissions seriously. He even filed a code of conduct complaint with the project against the developers. This was not upheld. So he proclaimed the project corrupt. [GitHub; Seylaw, archive]

This is an actual comment that this user left on another project: [GitLab]

As a non-programmer, I have zero understanding of the code and the analysis and fully rely on AI and even reviewed that AI analysis with a different AI to get the best possible solution (which was not good enough in this case).

[–] [email protected] 17 points 6 days ago (2 children)

I am not a programmer and I think it's silly to think that AI will replace developers.

But I was working through a math problem in Moscow Puzzles with my kiddo.

We had solved it, but I wasn't sure he got it at a deep level. So I figured I'd do something in Excel or maybe just do cut outs. But I figured I'd try to find a web app that would do this better. Nothing really came up that was a good match. But then thought, let's see how bad AI programming can be. I'd fought with it over some excel functions and it's been mainly useful in pointing me in the right direction, but only occasionally getting me over the finish line.

After about 6 to 8 hours of work, a little debugging, havinf teach and quiz me occasionally, and some real frustration of pointing out that the feature previously changed and re-emeged, I eventually had something that worked.

The Shooting Range Simulator is a web-based application designed to help users solve a logic puzzle involving scoring points by placing blocks on vertical number lines.

A buddy developer friend of mine said: "I took a quick scroll through the code. Looks pretty clean, but I didn't dive in enough to really understand it. Definitely all that css BS would take me ages to do without AI."

I don't take credit for this and don't pretend that this was my work, but I know my kiddo is excited to try the tool. I hope he learns from it and we bond over a math problem.

I know that everyone is worried about this tool, but moments like those are not nothing. Personally, I'm a Luddite and think the new tools should be deployed by the people's livelihood it will effect and not the business owners.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 6 days ago

Personally, I’m a Luddite and think the new tools should be deployed by the people’s livelihood it will effect and not the business owners.

Thank you for correctly describing what a Luddite wants and does not want.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Yes, despite the irrational phobia amongst the Lemmings, AI is massively useful across a wide range of examples like you've just given as it reduces barriers to building something.

As a CS grad, the problem isn't it replacing all programmers, at least not immediately. It's that a senior software engineer can manage a bunch of AI agents, meaning there's less demand for developers overall.

Same way tools like Wix, Facebook, etc came in and killed the need for a bunch of web developers that operated in the range for small businesses.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 5 days ago

As a CS grad, the problem isn’t it replacing all programmers, at least not immediately. It’s that a senior software engineer can manage a bunch of AI agents, meaning there’s less demand for developers overall.

Yes! You get it. That right there proves that you'll make it through just fine. So many in this thread denying that Ai is gonna take jobs. But you gave a great scenario.

[–] francois 13 points 6 days ago

Microsoft has set up copilot to make contributions for the dotnet runtime https://github.com/dotnet/runtime/pull/115762 I'm sure maintainers spends more time to review and interact with copilot than it would have to write it themselves

[–] [email protected] 15 points 6 days ago

If AI was good at coding, my game would be done by now.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 days ago

I'll admit I did used AI for code before, but here's the thing. I already coded for years, and I usually try everything before last resort things. And I find that approach works well. I rarely needed to go to the AI route. I used it like for .11% of my coding work, and I verified it through stress testing.

[+] [email protected] -14 points 6 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (3 children)

To be honest, so many of the comments in this thread are just cope.

It's true that ai isn't a replacement for good coders ..YET.

But it will be. You all can be as mad as you want, publish as many articles about how much ai sucks as you want. but it won't stop anything from happening.

I say this as someone who has just started to learn to code myself.

The reason you all are mad is because you suddenly feel unsafe and unappreciated. And you're right.

Ai is still gonna happen though. It will take away a lot of your jobs (especially starting with jr coders just getting into the market). It will lower your pay. You can yell about it, or you can adapt. Sucks, but it is what it is.

Think of it this way: what do you think the market is gonna be like in 5 years? Then 10? Brah, start preparing now. Right fucking now. Cuz it ain't gonna get easier for you. I promise.

It happened with blue-collar factory works in the midwest regions of the US because of automation and offshoring. People bitched and tried to stop it. Lots of snooty white-color workers yelled, "learn to code!" But none of that saved their jobs.

And you guys won't stop it happening with your jobs either. I don't like the idea of AI taking over everything either. But it will. Adapt or die.

I've just started to learn to code. I am enjoying it. But in no way, shape, or form am I thinking it's going to lead to a job for me.

EDIT: To copy what some else said, much better than me:

The idea that AI will some day be good at coding isn’t the issue. The issue is that some people in management think it’s already well on the way to being a good substitute, and they’re trying to do more with fewer coders to everyone’s detriment.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 6 days ago (3 children)

To be honest, you sound like you're only just starting to learn to code.

Will coding forever belong to humans? No. Is the current generative-AI technology going to replace coders? Also no.

The reaction you see is frustration because it's obvious to anyone with decent skill that AI isn't up to the challenge, but it's not obvious to people who don't have that skill and so we now spend a lot of time telling bosses "no, that's not actually correct".

Someone else referenced Microsoft's public work with Copilot. Here's Copilot making 13 PRs over 5 days and only 4 ever get merged you might think "30% success is pretty good!" But compare that with human-generated PRs and you can see that 30% fucking sucks. And that's not even looking inside the PR where the bot wastes everyone's time making tons of mistakes. It's just a terrible coworker and instead of getting fired they're getting an award for top performer.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 6 days ago

It's the Dunning-Kruger effect.

And it's fostered by an massive amount of spam and astroturfing coming from "AI" companies, lying that LLMs are good at this or that. Sure, algorithms like neural networks can recognize patterns. Algorithms like backtracking can play chess or solve or transform algebraic equations. But these are not LLMs and LLMs will not and can not replace software engineering.

Sure, companies want to pay less for programming. But they don't pay for software developers to generate some gibberish in source code syntax, they need working code. And this is why software engineers and good programmers will not only remain scarce but will become even shorter in supply.

And companies that don't pay six-figure salaries to developers will find that experienced developers will flat out refuse to work on AI-generated codebases, because they are unmaintainable and lead to burnout and brain rot.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

Been a few months since I used co-pilot, but they use a model that's worse than GPT-4/4o which is a big step down from the reasoning models.

Try out Cline, aider, or one of the tools devs actually use with the latest models from Anthropic/Google/OpenAI.

https://aider.chat/docs/leaderboards/

Didn't look through all the issues but there were things like

The agent was blocked by configuration issues from accessing the necessary dependencies to successfully build and test. Those are being fixed and we'll continue experimenting.

Been out less than a week, let's see how it's doing in a year.

[–] [email protected] -4 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (2 children)

To be honest, you sound like you’re only just starting to learn to code.

I definitely am. But I have no doubts that ai is going to take a lot of entry-level type jobs soon, and eventually higher end jobs.

We'll always need good, smart coders. Just not as many as we have now.

but it’s not obvious to people who don’t have that skill and so we now spend a lot of time telling bosses “no, that’s not actually correct”.

I get it. But those clueless people are gonna be the people in charge of hiring, and they'll decide to hire less, and expect current staff to do more. I've seen in hundreds of time in industries, and it's already happening now in yours.

For context, I'm old. So I've seen your arguments in many different industries.

And to your point, they'll have ai replacing good people, long before ai is good enough to. But you're approaching the issue with logic. Corporate lacks a lot of logic.

I'm already seeing it in your industry. Plenty of reddit/Lemmy posts talking about how coders have been laid off, and having a much much more difficult time getting another job than at any point in their careers.

Again, I'm saying AI is a good solution. I'm saying management will think that. Just like they did when they offshored jobs to much less skilled, yet way more inexpensive workers.

To copy what someone else in this thread said:

The idea that AI will some day be good at coding isn’t the issue. The issue is that some people in management think it’s already well on the way to being a good substitute, and they’re trying to do more with fewer coders to everyone’s detriment.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 6 days ago (2 children)

I don't understand how you think this works.

If I say, "now we have robots that can build a car from scratch!" the automakers will be salivating. But if my robot actually cannot build a car, then I don't think it's going to cause mass layoffs.

Many of the big software companies are doing mass layoffs. It's not because AI has taken over the jobs. They always hired extra people as a form of anti-competitiveness. Now they're doing layoffs to drive salaries down. That sucks and tech workers would be smart to unionize (we won't). But I don't see any radical shift in the industry.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

A big part of the changed software job market in the US is caused by the rise of interest rates, and in consequence a large part of high-risk venture capital money drying up. This was finsncing a lot of start-ups without any solid product or business model. And, this began very clearly before the AI hype.

The trope that AI is actually replacing jobs is a lie that AI companies want you to believe.

[–] piccolo 3 points 6 days ago

Companies are also using AI to mask layoffs. "Yeah we dont need as many employees because AI can do their jobs better. Please shareholders, buy more stock and ignore our numbers!"

[–] [email protected] -1 points 5 days ago

I don’t understand how you think this works.

Do you think I am the only one that thinks like this? You don't think middle and upper management thinks like I do?

But I don’t see any radical shift in the industry.

Oh, I'm saving this comment. Dude, go into any CSjobs forum and you tell me that there's not a shift in the industry. lol

I'll say this. I hope you're right. (but you're not)

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 days ago

If you walk around in my city and open your eyes, you will see that half of the bars and restaurants are closed because there is a shortage of even unskilled staff and restaurants didn't pay enough to people. They now work in other sectors.

And yes, software developers are leaving jobs with unreasonable demands and shitty work conditions. Last not least because conserving mental health is more important. Go, for exanple, to the news.ycombinators.com forum and just search for the keyword "burnout". That's becoming a massive problem for companies because rising complexity is not matched by adequate organizational practices.

And AI is not going to help with that - it is already massively increasing technical debt.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 6 days ago (1 children)

The idea that AI will some day be good at coding isn't the issue. The issue is that some people in management think it's already well on the way to being a good substitute, and they're trying to do more with fewer coders to everyone's detriment.

[–] [email protected] -3 points 6 days ago

100 percent. YOu said in two sentences what I have been trying to say to others. I think you are 100 percent correct. Management will count on AI long before they actually should. That shortsightedness has always been around and always will be.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 days ago (2 children)

I think the biggest difference between this and blue-collars workers losing their jobs, though, is that the same people losing their jobs are also placed very to benefit from the technology. Blue collared workers losing manufacturing jobs couldn't, because they were priced out of obtaining that mafacturing hardware themselves, but programmers can use AI on an individual basis to augment their production. Not sure what the industry will look like in 10 years, but I feel like there will be plenty of opportunities for people who build digital things.

That being said, people who were looking to be junior developers exactly right now.... uhhh.... that's some extrememly unlucky timing. I wish you luck.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 days ago (1 children)

They could now, because big "AI" companies sell their product on a loss.

The individual programmer is already outpriced when it comes to training those kind of models themselves. Once the companies want to turn a profit, the just laid off worker is outpriced as well. If an LLM can really do as good as a human programmer, who costs 70-100k, nothing stops the LLM provider to charge 35-50k easily. Try to augment your productivity at that price point, especially without a job.

I mean, society came through the change of the first and second work sector, we could reap the new productivity gains for the benefit of all, but, alas here we are at the beginning of a new crisis 😅

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

mmm so I've only used the online models for agent coding, since I'm on a laptop and lack the hardware, but my understanding is that local models like devstral and llama are relatively competitive and can be used on like... a gaming rig? I don't think they'd be able to push the price that much.

But I don't disagree that big companies will try their darnedest to.

[–] [email protected] -3 points 6 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

Well I'm old, so not looking for a job, I am just learning programming because i want to. But to your point, I am seeing LOTS of developers who have been laid off and finding another job is proving more challenging than ever before. It's rough out there and I feel for them.

To copy what someone else in this thread said:

The idea that AI will some day be good at coding isn’t the issue. The issue is that some people in management think it’s already well on the way to being a good substitute, and they’re trying to do more with fewer coders to everyone’s detriment.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

Oh layoffs are definitely happening. I'm just not sure if it's caused by AI productivity gains, or if it's just the latest excuse (the pandemic, then soft layoffs of "back to office" enforcement, and now AI). Esp since the companies most talking about AI productivity gains are the same companies that benefit from AI adoption...

What I wanted to explain is just that the skills to program actually translate pretty well. At my old company, we used to say "you know someone's a staff engineer, because they only make PowerPoint presentations and diagrams, and don't actually write any code". And those skills directly translate to directing an AI to build the thing you need. The abstracted architect role will probably increase in value, as the typing value decreases.

My biggest concern is probably that AI is currently eating junior dev jobs, since what it excels at is typically the kind of work you'd give to a junior engineer. And I think that more gruntwork kinda tasks are the way that someone develops the higher level skills that are important later; you start to see the kinds of edge cases first hand, so it makes them memorable. But I feel like that might just be a transition thing; many developers these days don't know bare code down to the 1s and 0s. The abstraction might just move up another level, and people will build more things. At least, this is the optimistic view. 🤷 But I'm an optimistic guy.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 5 days ago

My biggest concern is probably that AI is currently eating junior dev jobs, since what it excels at is typically the kind of work you’d give to a junior engineer.

Yeah, def gonna be rough for people graduating from college right now.

[–] atzanteol 44 points 1 week ago (9 children)

Have you used AI to code? You don't say "hey, write this file" and then commit it as "AI Bot 123 [email protected]".

You start writing a method and get auto-completes that are sometimes helpful. Or you ask the bot to write out an algorithm. Or to copy something and modify it 30 times.

You're not exactly keeping track of everything the bots did.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I used it only as last resort. I verify it before using it. I only had used it for like .11% of my project. I would not recommend AI.

[–] atzanteol -2 points 6 days ago

My dude, I very code other humans write. Do you think I'm not verifying code written by AI?

I highly recommend using AI. It's much better than a Google search for most things.

[–] [email protected] 54 points 1 week ago (14 children)

yeah, that's... one of the points in the article

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[–] [email protected] 39 points 1 week ago (2 children)

It’s not good because it has no context on what is correct or not. It’s constantly making up functions that don’t exist or attributing functions to packages that don’t exist. It’s often sloppy in its responses because the source code it parrots is some amalgamation of good coding and terrible coding. If you are using this for your production projects, you will likely not be knowledgeable when it breaks, it’ll likely have security flaws, and will likely have errors in it.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 days ago

And I'll keep saying this: you can't teach a neural network to understand context without creating a generalised context engine, another word for which is AGI.

Fidelity is impossible to automate.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 6 days ago

So you're saying I've got a shot?

[–] [email protected] 23 points 1 week ago (6 children)

If humans are so good at coding, how come there are 8100000000 people and only 1500 are able to contribute to the Linux kernel?

I hypothesize that AI has average human coding skills.

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