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Electric Vehicles are a key part of our tomorrow and how we get there. If we can get all the fossil fuel vehicles off our roads, out of our seas and out of our skies, we'll have a much better environment. This community is where we discuss the various different vehicles and news stories regarding electric transportation.
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This is all about driver engagement, something that EVs frankly aren't as good at when compared to something like a Miata, or even an old pickup truck with a miles-long gear lever sticking up from the floor.
Manual for gas engines makes sense because it gives more control over the power band, which doesn't apply to EVs. How would making it clunkier at a detriment to performance make it more engaging?
It’s fun to drive a manual. It’s very engaging in the literal sense of the word; in order to do it well you have to stay constantly involved and pay attention.
It used to be that there were other benefit to manual transmissions — you could get your fun engagement and also say you were getting better performance or saving gas or saving money. In these modern days though if you still buy a manual you’re pretty much only doing it for the fun factor.
I guess putting a manual imitation mode on an EV is just the same — fun factor only for nerds who like that. Though how they can take themselves seriously with no clutch pedal to botch the shift I don’t know.
Me personally I want to see them take that all the way — give me a Ford Model A mode with manual choke, and carb adjustments on the steering wheel! Give me a manual timing advance! Let me know how my forefathers felt while driving!
I started this post as a mockery but now I actually want that hm..
This isn't with a clutch or shifting between power bands though, it is just flipper paddles making sounds and vibrations that don't actually have anything to do with how the vehicle power works. Like using paddles on an automatic, but without the benefits.
No impact on the driving at all? That seems pointless and also not worth a patent. I confess I didn’t read the article; I was thinking of this older article about a Lexus prototype
At best it is a negative impact!
In other words, as you row the stick fore and aft, signals are sent to alter the output from the vehicle's motor (or motors), mimicking the shifts of a standard transmission. Presumably, that makes your EV slower since output is interrupted, but again, that's not the point.
Well, yes. Same as a real manual transmission in this day and age.
If all you want is the most efficient transportation then it’s better to take the train.
No, a real manual transmission on the vast majority of cars is still more engaging and efficient than automatic because you have more control over the gear in corners and betger control over the power band at slower speeds. Some automatics are faster at acceleration, but cornering is always better in a manual.
Yes, a train/subway is more efficient than any car invluding EVs.
Engaging — very much so, at least for me personally
Performant — mixed story. in cheap cars like my Honda Fit where the alternative is a CV transmission, manual performs way better. In sports cars where the alternative is a dual-clutch, I think the automatics have been beating the manual on the track for a few years now.
Efficient — I think we lost that battle on all fronts since some years back
The delay between the bursts of acceleration when shifting gears give the driver an anticipatory boost of adrenaline each shift. Clunking or slamming into gear is very tactile and feels good.
And you could simulate that with am EV if you wanted. It would be pretty silly since it would just be for fun. But I do still fondly remember abusing the shit out of my manual Geo Metro...
The delay between the bursts of acceleration when shifting gears give the driver an anticipatory boost of adrenaline each shift. Clunking or slamming into gear is very tactile and feels good.
With a clutch, yeah changing gears is pretty cool. Flipper paddles on an automatic isn't like that at all though, which is what this EV shifting thing sounds like.
Yeah, to do it right would involve a lot of silly unnecessary stuff (like a stick shifter) just to make it feel good.
my manual Geo Metro...
Yo, my family had a Geo Metro when I was growing up! Such a good little car.
It would be nice if it changed the amount of regen (engine braking) and acceleration. Just like downshifting into a corner and powering out of it. I've never driven an ev, so idk if it would help with driving performance. I drove a manual for over a decade and I'm over it. I'll have fun driving anything really. I like to hit the tricky apex on the onramp every morning. The people riding my ass end up about a 1/4 mile behind me pretty quickly because they don't understand how to drive.
Gears are important with an internal combustion engine because at low revs they have less torque and the high end you run out of speed headroom, so if you're going slowly you can boost your acceleration by changing the gear ratio and when you near your maximum rpm, you can change up to boost your acceleration.
It's pleasing because you regain the ability to accelerate and it feels nice to be able to press the pedal and feel the acceleration of the car.
In an EV you can do that at absolutely any time, it doesn't depend on what you do with your other hand or your other foot, so there's never any delay at all between a decision and a zoom.
This is why an EV is so much fun to drive for me.
In an EV the accelerator pedal just never feels spongy and unresponsive. It was never the preparation for acceleration that I enjoyed, it was the acceleration. I test drove some EVs that have a drive mode you can select that replicates the feel of an ICE car off the line. I characterise this as spongy and unresponsive and I don't know why anyone likes it at all.
I guess sometimes I want decreased pedal input to slow the car down more than other times, and sometimes I want increased pedal input to accelerate more than others. Traction control solves this for the most part though. I'll have to get ahold of an ev and see what it's like. Winter driving is one of the times where I did prefer a manual so that lifting the throttle didn't mean losing control, but I guess I've never had a car with modern traction control either.
Have you driven a manual transmission car? I don't think you have
I think you’re missing the point. Manual transmission vehicles are engaging because you are in control and select the gear best suited for your needs at any given point during a drive. Putting a fake stick shift in an electric car that doesn’t have any gears doesn’t do anything for driver engagement because it’s completely useless
Not OP but I haven't. Correct me if I'm wrong but there are no gears to shift, so what's the point?
The feel of driving manual is more visceral and enjoyable to car enthusiasts. If that's not you, there's no point.
I've driven manual cars, including a 328i for many years. I loved that 6 speed. But it was engaging because it was a mechanical necessity. Faking this entire experience seems absurd. It would be like adding vestigial pedals to a jet pack because you also happen to like riding bikes.
I'll reserve my judgement until I try one. I've had my Porsche 914 for 20 years, and have had a plethora of other manuals alongside it. I am skeptical, but willing to hope the experience can be emulated.
When my engine finally blows, I'll consider a conversion to electric for the old girl.
I don't see how it can be worthwhile without a clutch pedal though since that is the heart of the manual experience. This is just adding a handheld input that modifies the accelerator response in a way that seems to mimic the quirks of an entirely different mechanical system (that being the paddle style shifters of automatic transmissions, not actual manuals). These at least served some purpose by giving the driver more control over shift points. Now imagine you never drove a manual or used paddle shifters in the first place, which is becoming the norm.
I take it you never drove a VW autostick.
Correct, I have not. But I also doubt Ford is intending to specifically copy the niche VW autostick from 50 years ago to appeal to such hypothetical customers. This is all getting a bit silly, we barely even have sedans and stations wagons anymore, we practically lost physical buttons and are stuck with privacy invading software, but somehow this silliness makes the cut?
Dude. If they're trying, at least it's an effort to have both worlds. It won't happen on the first few gens. But if a visceral analog for shifting comes about, I'll be happy.
As for the rest, I agree. I prefer analog and bare bones. I can fix my Porsche by myself. I can fix my Delica by myself. I only own cars I can work on. But I hold out hope that we can have both progress and driving enjoyment.
Tbf most Americans at least can't. The only people who even learn nowadays seek it out.
I'll have you know I've owned a manual car since 1999. Sometimes by choice
Hey I drive one too, or at least I will again once I fix my civic. Or sell it. Idk yet, next car will be a stick though.
How would making it clunkier at a detriment to performance make it more engaging?
Hyundai's Ioniq 5 N has gotten widespread praise for its simulated flappy-paddle gearbox. Not quite the same as a clutch + stick, but if they impressed so many auto journalists by simulating an automatic ICE transmission, it's definitely possible for this described system to be even more fun than that.
Driving manual cars is just plain more fun even if it's significantly slower.
Ford's EV shifter doesn't mindlessly go through the motions. Small motors are built into the base that provide force feedback through the lever. It can vibrate the stick like a lumpy 6.2-liter V-8 Camaro, and when you move between the "gears" it provides some notchy resistance
Ah, yes. The lumpy old Ford Camaro. Very good. Very good.
Stupid.
Build the car on its own merits.
After reading the article, I agree.
If you're going to put a stick shift in an electric car, at least make it functional, instead of just hindering the performance of the car. (Like have each gear control a different-sized motor* or something.)
This is just as dumb as CVTs that do fake shifts, thanks to idiots who freak out when they see their engine holding a certain RPM 'cause they don't understand how they work. Reminds me of the early days of the automobile where they considered attaching a fake horse head to the front of the vehicle:
The one positive thing patents do is prevent every single manufacturer from independently flooding the market with the same brain dead idea.
@Sunshine This seems to be very close to what Hyundai does in the Ioniq 5N, just using a stick instead of paddles. I don't know if that difference will be enough to warrant a patent, but time will tell.
As for the feature itself - yeah, it seems stupid and pointless, but every single review I have seen of the 5N acknowledges the stupidity but also concludes (usually with a huge grin on the reviewers face) that it makes the car an absolute blast to drive.
Will this be a thing in 20 years? Most likely not. Could it be the gateway drug for petrolheads? Yeah, looks like it.
Hyundai already did it with the Ioniq 5 N, and I'm really eager to try it out someday.
I've heard both Doug Demuro and Matt Farah say that Porsche and everyone else making sporty EVs should be doing what Hyundai did, because it's apparently actually that good.
What exactly can they parent here? Hyundai already make the software and SIM racers have been making the hardware for like a decade now.
Don't get me wrong it sounds fun. This just doesn't seem novel enough to validate a patent.
Electric race cars have gears. Torque/acceleration vs top speed. There is a small efficiency boost for a regular car go go at high rpm and low load, but it also can have a noise disadvantage. A more powerful motor will outperform a transmission at lower expense, but transmission can get up a crazy hill or significantly improve 0-100kph time.
With all of this I predict racing well get faster
Interesting, but feels like abuse of the patent system (which is widespread) and feels pointless.
Personal experience: I drive the earliest highway-capable electric car, a MIEV from 2011. It has a "manual gear stick". Gear B gives hard acceleration and hard regenerative braking. D gives medium. C gives slow acceleration and soft regenerative braking. In reality, there's only one mechanical gear - the parking lock. All other "gears" including reverse are electronically implemented. As for why the letters are out of sequence, I don't know.
I use B in summer and D in winter, because applying B on glass-flat ice can lead to skidding. I hear that people in mountainous places appreciate B when going downhill - constant deceleration with no touching of the brake pedal.
But something that's been rinsed and repeated over the history shouldn't be patentable any more.
Is this just pointless noise or is it also a pointless temporary drop in acceleration?
When we eventually do get real self-driving cars, some of them will come with force-feedback steering wheels that give the illusion of driving.
Hyundai already has one, and they just showed off a e-hydraulic-hand-brake for doing drifting/skids too.