Wait, I've seen this one before
We're at 3 or 4 at worst. It's gonna get so much worse, guys. Remember that it took at least fifteen hundred years to get back to where we were.
this post was submitted on 15 Nov 2024
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At the same time, Rome survived the extreme corruption of the Jugurthine War, the infighting of the Social War, and three servile wars in the Late Republic, and the golden age of Rome hadn't even begun. The Empire survived Caligula, Nero, and Domitian before the reign of the Five Good Emperors even came to pass.
Where we are is anyone's guess.
Just figured I'd lighten the doom a little.
And "The Fall" was a Roman general mad his army wasn't being paid, and ignores that the capital had moved, Rome the city was still ticking along and the "Byzantine Empire" called and considered themselves Roman.
Civilization Ending and The Fall of Rome was very much a Renaissance narrative about how great they were more than actual History.
For all the people saying "This is it. We're done. It's all over.": It can get so much worse. Screwed is a matter of degree. One can get more screwed, or one can try to get less screwed.
Fun fact: Part of the Roman Empire's strength was its tolerance and integration of other cultures instead of trying to impose their own. Their various Italian subjects were "allies" in name and bound by pacts of mutual assistance, but otherwise largely left to govern themselves as long as they paid their tithes.
The prospect of becoming Roman Citizens in exchange for military service enticed them to serve as auxiliary units. These units were also tightly integrated with the Roman troops, often leading to a gradual blending of cultures, a layering of identities rather than exclusively choosing them.
Sure, this wasn't some altruistic act of goodwill so much as political strategy to maximise their power, but it worked. Part of the fall was the fracturing of loyalties because later Emperors abandoned that policy and it's just not as appealing to send your sons off to war for an empire that will only ever treat you as second class subjects.
Of course, the whole thing is more complicated than I could convey in a single comment, but check out this ancient historian's blog series on "Who were the Romans?" and "Decline and Fall?".
In support of your point, here's a nice little quote from Emperor Claudius, who was also a scholar and a historian:
What was the ruin of Sparta and Athens, but this, that mighty as they were in war, they spurned from them as aliens those whom they had conquered? Our founder Romulus, on the other hand, was so wise that he fought as enemies and then hailed as fellow-citizens several nations on the very same day. Strangers have reigned over us. That freedmen’s sons should be intrusted with public offices is not, as many wrongly think, a sudden innovation, but was a common practice in the old commonwealth. But, it will be said, we have fought with the Senones. I suppose then that the Volsci and Aequi never stood in array against us. Our city was taken by the Gauls. Well, we also gave hostages to the Etruscans, and passed under the yoke of the Samnites. On the whole, if you review all our wars, never has one been finished in a shorter time than that with the Gauls. Thenceforth they have preserved an unbroken and loyal peace. United as they now are with us by manners, education, and intermarriage, let them bring us their gold and their wealth rather than enjoy it in isolation. Everything, Senators, which we now hold to be of the highest antiquity, was once new. Plebeian magistrates came after patrician; Latin magistrates after plebeian; magistrates of other Italian peoples after Latin. This practice too will establish itself, and what we are this day justifying by precedents, will be itself a precedent.
I have a fantastic book on the subject, Imperial Ideology and Provincial Loyalty in the Roman Empire, highly recommend.
Wow, that's a hell of a quote. That's a sentiment that rankles people today.
The more things change, the more they stay the same, right?
More seriously, it's one of the reasons I adore Rome so much - many of the records and systems depict something that feels modern, asking the same fundamental questions and getting into the same arguments, as we do today.
And it's always hilarious that bureaucracy is timeless.
Yeah, exactly! Nothing else comes close. The medieval and early-modern periods are just very different (and non-civilisational, I guess?), and then modern industrial civilisation grows up on top of it before the old is fully gone everywhere. If you want eerie parallels, you do Rome.
The history of unrelated civilisations on other continents seems inaccessible in English, or in the case of the Americas just poorly preserved in general, thanks to said early-modern Europeans.
Stuff on other continents seems inaccessible in English, or in the case of the Americas just poorly preserved in general, thanks to said early-modern Europeans.
God, what the Spanish did to Mesoamerican codices will forever haunt me as a student of history. Just pure barbarism, literal book-burning.
Claudius is a madlad all around. The gall to write an apparently too honest history while the subject of that history is still alive and your emperor is amazing.
It's a shame his writings haven't survived, I'm sure they'd be fascinating.
Is the book you recommend accessible to non-historians?
After losing the book in an apartment the size of a thimble and, after some effort, re-finding it in this hellhole, I managed to give it a look-over! It's more accessible than I remember, even. Very friendly, even if your only background is reading a beginner's guide to Roman history or the like. Detailed, yes, but with explanations of any context that would be unfamiliar to your average layman.
Awesome, that sounds like I'd enjoy checking it out (and not just because if I didn't, I'd feel bad about the effort you put into finding it)
Tangentially related: It's unfortunate and possibly ironic that the people who would most benefit from learning some history are often ill-equipped with the skills needed to study history. My late best friend was a historian, and as a scientist, something I cherished in our friendship was the insight into the historian's perspective. It felt like a jarringly different way of viewing the world, but that's why it felt useful. He'd probably feel proud (and a little smug) to see that my interest in history has lasted even though he wasn't here to feed it.
I was going to say yes, but let me find it so I can reread a chapter or two and be sure. It's not for beginners, but if you're looking into niches like the question of ideology and regional loyalty, it reasonably presumes that you know what the Roman Empire is and its basic aspects.
[laughs]
[cries]
[falls on own sword]
[falls on own sword]
We wish we had the longevity of the romans.
We'll see what happens.
I think covid was eye opener and nail in the coffin of many institutions that were already on borrowed time. Our 3rd century moment.
But un/like the romans, they transformed from the experience. Well have to see if we are as adaptable. We've only been here like 300 years. That's a blip in their history.
We shall see.
I am but a humble Thracian mercenary formerly attached to the Grecian contingent battalion tasked with maintaining the current peace between us. I consider it a sad, somewhat ignoble, feat wherein our peaceful adversaries have chosen a scion of the madman Nero to lead them through the current straits.
Don't worry, stopping the woke mind virus will save us
If we discriminate against trans people hard enough, all our problems will be solved.
And don't worry, once that scapegoat has been eliminated we'll find a new one!
Nothing burning more coal gas and oil can't fix.
I'm fairly convinced income inequality is the downfall of ALL empires
The tricky thing there is that it's been way, way higher than today in past eras long before anything breaks. IIRC most of the research shows it just goes up indefinitely, most of the time, and then reverses during times of collapse when the poor are finally able to loot the mansions.
I really hope actual democracies play by different rules, though.
I feel that nowadays the breaking point will be a lot sooner. Based on the amount of resources that the average citizen can acquire, mansions would be able to get looted a lot quicker. If not looted then razed.
If you mean in a popular revolution way, I feel the need to point out that that's not what happened in Rome, and very arguably not in France either. The collapse always comes from elites fighting elites - it just gives everyone else a chance to pick off their metaphorical bones.
If we're not on different rules I'm hella doomer about the whole thing, honestly.
I want to get off the "interesting times" wild ride
*roughly here
I don't really buy it. Rome fell for reasons a professional historian of Rome has told me are still unclear, but I don't really see a lot of parallels in our big problems, which are very new and untested.
Elites hoarding wealth to the detriment of the polity and mindless obedience to utterly incompetent cretins are truly timeless contributors, though.
Yeah, I realise it's kinda weird to post this after talking about how familiar a lot of things in Rome were, but in the narrow scope of existential problems the overlap is limited.
Liberal democracies work very differently from autocracies. The weather isn't a mystery of the gods, it's self-inflicted. Rome kept it's population in check through massive natural and to a lesser degree artificial mortality, while we have great medicine but ever-lower fertility rates. Roman peasants may have been vaguely aware of the distant land of Italy, we have information overload conveyed by machines even 20th century people struggle with. When we have a plague, it's less about escaping it, and more about convincing people they should.
Some problems are timeless - or at least haven't been dealt with yet - but I feel like putting it in terms of Rome like this is misleading and can be used to justify all kinds of things. When I've seen this meme posted before, it's usually a lead-up to really chuddy comments about immigration or loss of traditional values.
Good thing trump got elected 👍
… because he will accelerate the decline of Western-centric global domination. Fasten your seatbelt - it’ll be wild.