this post was submitted on 04 Nov 2024
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Science Memes

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[–] [email protected] 102 points 2 months ago (4 children)

Some of these ships would carry green hydrogen and new lithium batteries and old lithium batteries (to be recycled) and whatnot. Also at least some oil would be still needed for fine chemicals like meds or (idk what's proper english term for that) large scale organic synthesis like plastics, or even straight distillates like hexane (for edible oil extraction) or lubricants. Some of usual non-energy uses of oil can be easily substituted with enough energy like with nitrogen fertilizers but some can't

[–] [email protected] 36 points 2 months ago (2 children)

the argument for renewable energy isnt that we should stop using oil, its that we shouldnt burn it. why turn our limited supply of oil into CO2 and water when we can turn it into plastics, medicine, solvents, etc? around 3/4 of crude oil is used as fuel, but if renewable energy was used, the number of oil tankers would decrease by more than 75% bc local supplies would generally be sufficient for industrial, non-fuel uses

[–] [email protected] 14 points 2 months ago

ikr, but that tweet implies that all of oil/gas/coal ships would be unnecessary

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

bc local supplies would generally be sufficient for industrial, non-fuel uses

this is assuming that its not just cheaper to import that needed oil? This is always going to be a fundamental problem, though maybe we already happen to produce plastic with native oil idk.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago (3 children)

And oil for Styrofoam. And met coal for steel.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (6 children)

There's alternative processes, and if you avoid burning oil and coal for fuel you can basically do all that with the amount of oil that's in easy reach instead of using tar sands or drilling into even more difficult to reach places.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

coal can be substituted to some degree with processes like direct reduction. hydrogen works but syngas from biomass or trash also works

file styrofoam under plastics

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[–] [email protected] 37 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Fun fact: through the 1800s coal-powered steamships mostly replaced sailing vessels for the transportation of people and time-sensitive cargo around the world. But steamships were highly inefficient and required frequent re-coaling, and locally available coal was dirtier and contained less thermal energy than the good stuff that Britain (who was doing by far most of the shipping) got from Wales and other places on their island. Because steamships could not efficiently and cheaply haul the coal that they needed around the world to restock the coaling stations, this was done instead by an enormous fleet of sailing colliers. So the "steam revolution" of the 1800s was actually a steam/wind-power hybrid. It wasn't until the advent of triple- and quadruple-expansion steam engines, turbines, and greatly improved boilers in the early 1900s that steam-powered vessels could efficiently and economically haul their own fuel. And even with that, wind-powered cargo vessels remained economically viable and operating in significant numbers right up until the start of WWII (that's II, not I).

A great read is The Last Grain Race by Eric Newby, about his time as a sailor aboard Moshulu (a large steel sail-powered cargo ship) in 1938-1939. Moshulu went on to star in The Godfather Part II as the ship which brings young Vito Corleone to New York, and is now weirdly enough a floating restaurant in my city of Philadelphia (I've never eaten there but I want to).

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

These chairs they have inside it would make me not want to eat there.

[–] [email protected] 35 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Won't someone think of the seamen?

[–] [email protected] 22 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I'm constantly thinking of seamen

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Capt'n Pugwash and Seaman Stains will both be out of jobs.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Don't forget, Roger the cabin boy

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 2 months ago (7 children)

correct me if I'm wrong, but the United States doesn't even have oil refineries that are capable of making gasoline out of American oil? like we need the type of oil that the middle East has, so we're constantly trading oil back and forth even though we have plenty of it

I think I've heard this is true. something about politicians wanting to look environmentalist and therefore preventing the building of any more refineries

[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 months ago (1 children)

No, there's a significant amount of oil infrastructure locally. They've even got a colonialist extension with Canada: crude oil crosses over to be refined and sold back to Canada

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 months ago

No, it is true. It is not the quantity of oil infrastructure, but the grades and types they are. The US crude is mostly light sweet crude after the shift to oil shale. The refinery infrastructure was originally built for heavy crude with high sulfur content. Thus the US imports the type of oil our refineries were built to handle, and exports the portion of the oil that is domestically produced, but the wrong type.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago (2 children)

The lack of investment in the types of oil refineries to refine US oil domestically isn't as much for optics purposes. But that relative to the amount of investment required to build new refineries to compete with the current foreign ones isn't a good return on investment relative to the up front cost and the existing profits of the current arrangement.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

the government should at least subsidize a couple so in the event of an apocalypse we can make our own gasoline.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

it's also to do with prices. There is a certain amount of this that is true, but the primary reason is oil prices.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

yeah from what people are telling me, we have the capability of processing lower quality crude oil so it makes more sense to export our high quality stuff, then buy the cheap stuff since we can already refine it.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago (2 children)

yeah thats pretty much the TL;DR here. It's complicated since oil is complicated and there isn't really a "insert oil" oil to talk about, there are a lot of variations of it, and a lot of ways to refine it, and a lot of different resultant products from it as well.

The fact that the modern petro industry even works is kind of insane.

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Anyone know how much of the oil transported is actually used for plastic, percentage wise?

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago
[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 months ago (1 children)

So what you’re saying is the companies that own those boats will lobby the government so that this never happens? Sweet.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

actually, it's already happening, why do you think LNG is such a massive export from the US right now?

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Now I’m waiting for the news report,

“Green Energy will cost jobs!”

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

yeah, free market economies baby, making everything more efficient!

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago

gotta burn fuel just to get more fuel. Zeno’s paradox but capitalistic economic collapse

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Yeah but if I'm not mistaken, emissions from shipping are quite low anyways. It's something like 2-5℅ of all our emissions, so it's pretty low priority.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Idk man 5% sure sounds a hell of a lot better than 0%

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