this post was submitted on 15 Oct 2024
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[–] [email protected] 206 points 2 months ago (2 children)
[–] [email protected] 85 points 2 months ago (5 children)

The results of this new GSM-Symbolic paper aren't completely new in the world of AI researchOther recent papers have similarly suggested that LLMs don't actually perform formal reasoning and instead mimic it with probabilistic pattern-matching of the closest similar data seen in their vast training sets.

WTF kind of reporting is this, though? None of this is recent or new at all, like in the slightest. I am shit at math, but have a high level understanding of statistical modeling concepts mostly as of a decade ago, and even I knew this. I recall a stats PHD describing models as "stochastic parrots"; nothing more than probabilistic mimicry. It was obviously no different the instant LLM's came on the scene. If only tech journalists bothered to do a superficial amount of research, instead of being spoon fed spin from tech bros with a profit motive...

[–] [email protected] 45 points 2 months ago (1 children)

It's written as if they literally expected AI to be self reasoning and not just a mirror of the bullshit that is put into it.

[–] [email protected] 39 points 2 months ago (15 children)

Probably because that's the common expectation due to calling it "AI". We're well past the point of putting the lid back on that can of worms, but we really should have saved that label for... y'know... intelligence, that's artificial. People think we've made an early version of Halo's Cortana or Star Trek's Data, and not just a spellchecker on steroids.

The day we make actual AI is going to be a really confusing one for humanity.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 months ago (3 children)

…a spellchecker on steroids.

Ask literally any of the LLM chat bots out there still using any headless GPT instances from 2023 how many Rs there are in “strawberry,” and enjoy. 🍓

[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 months ago

This problem is due to the fact that the AI isnt using english words internally, it's tokenizing. There are no Rs in {35006}.

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 months ago

describing models as “stochastic parrots”

That is SUCH a good description.

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[–] [email protected] 17 points 2 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 months ago

*starts sweating

Look at that subtle pixel count, the tasteful colouring... oh my god, it's even transparent...

[–] [email protected] 94 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (5 children)

One time I exposed deep cracks in my calculator's ability to write words with upside down numbers. I only ever managed to write BOOBS and hELLhOLE.

LLMs aren't reasoning. They can do some stuff okay, but they aren't thinking. Maybe if you had hundreds of them with unique training data all voting on proposals you could get something along the lines of a kind of recognition, but at that point you might as well just simulate cortical columns and try to do Jeff Hawkins' idea.

[–] [email protected] 45 points 2 months ago

LLMs aren't reasoning. They can do some stuff okay, but they aren't thinking

and the more people realize it, the better. which is why it's good that a research like that from a reputable company makes headlines.

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[–] [email protected] 90 points 2 months ago (16 children)

Did anyone believe they had the ability to reason?

[–] [email protected] 37 points 2 months ago
[–] [email protected] 30 points 2 months ago

People are stupid OK? I've had people who think that it can in fact do math, "better than a calculator"

[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 months ago

Like 90% of the consumers using this tech are totally fine handing over tasks that require reasoning to LLMs and not checking the answers for accuracy.

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[–] [email protected] 56 points 2 months ago (1 children)

So do I every time I ask it a slightly complicated programming question

[–] [email protected] 19 points 2 months ago (1 children)

And sometimes even really simple ones.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago (5 children)

How many w's in "Howard likes strawberries" It would be awesome to know!

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (4 children)

So I keep seeing people reference this... And I found it curious of a concept that LLMs have problems with this. So I asked them... Several of them...

Outside of this image... Codestral ( my default ) got it actually correct and didn't talk itself out of being correct... But that's no fun so I asked 5 others, at once.

What's sad is that Dolphin Mixtral is a 26.44GB model...
Gemma 2 is the 5.44GB variant
Gemma 2B is the 1.63GB variant
LLaVa Llama3 is the 5.55 GB variant
Mistral is the 4.11GB Variant

So I asked Codestral again because why not! And this time it talked itself out of being correct...

Edit: fixed newline formatting.

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[–] [email protected] 56 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The tested LLMs fared much worse, though, when the Apple researchers modified the GSM-Symbolic benchmark by adding "seemingly relevant but ultimately inconsequential statements" to the questions

Good thing they're being trained on random posts and comments on the internet, which are known for being succinct and accurate.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Yeah, especially given that so many popular vegetables are members of the brassica genus

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Absolutely. It would be a shame if AI didn't know that the common maple tree is actually placed in the family cannabaceae.

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[–] [email protected] 46 points 2 months ago (4 children)

statistical engine suggesting words that sound like they'd probably be correct is bad at reasoning

How can this be??

[–] [email protected] 19 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I would say that if anything, LLMs are showing cracks in our way of reasoning.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Or the problem with tech billionaires selling "magic solutions" to problems that don't actually exist. Or how people are too gullible in the modern internet to understand when they're being sold snake oil in the form of "technological advancement" when it's actually just repackaged plagiarized material.

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[–] [email protected] 45 points 2 months ago (1 children)

They are large LANGUAGE models. It's no surprise that they can't solve those mathematical problems in the study. They are trained for text production. We already knew that they were no good in counting things.

[–] [email protected] 26 points 2 months ago (2 children)

"You see this fish? Well, it SUCKS at climbing trees."

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[–] [email protected] 39 points 2 months ago (4 children)

Are you telling me Apple hasn't seen through the grift and is approaching this with an open mind just to learn how full off bullshit most of the claims from the likes of Altman are? And now they're sharing their gruesome discoveries with everyone while they're unveiling them?

[–] [email protected] 51 points 2 months ago

I would argue that Apple Intelligence™️ is evidence they never bought the grift. It's very focused on tailored models scoped to the specific tasks that AI does well; creative and non-critical tasks like assisting with text processing/transforming, image generation, photo manipulation.

The Siri integrations seem more like they're using the LLM to stitch together the API's that were already exposed between apps (used by shortcuts, etc); each having internal logic and validation that's entirely programmed (and documented) by humans. They market it as a whole lot more, but they market every new product as some significant milestone for mankind ... even when it's a feature that other phones have had for years, but in an iPhone!

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[–] [email protected] 36 points 2 months ago (2 children)

The fun part isn't even what Apple said - that the emperor is naked - but why it's doing it. It's nice bullet against all four of its GAFAM competitors.

[–] [email protected] 28 points 2 months ago

This right here, this isn't conscientious analysis of tech and intellectual honesty or whatever, it's a calculated shot at it's competitors who are desperately trying to prevent the generative AI market house of cards from falling

[–] conciselyverbose 18 points 2 months ago

They're a publicly traded company.

Their executives need something to point to to be able to push back against pressure to jump on the trend.

[–] [email protected] 33 points 2 months ago

cracks? it doesn't even exist. we figured this out a long time ago.

[–] [email protected] 27 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

I feel like a draft landed on Tim's desk a few weeks ago, explains why they suddenly pulled back on OpenAI funding.

People on the removed superfund birdsite are already saying Apple is missing out on the next revolution.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 2 months ago (1 children)

"Superfund birdsite" I am shamelessly going to steal from you

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I hope this gets circulated enough to reduce the ridiculous amount of investment and energy waste that the ramping-up of "AI" services has brought. All the companies have just gone way too far off the deep end with this shit that most people don't even want.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 2 months ago (2 children)

People working with these technologies have known this for quite awhile. It's nice of Apple's researchers to formalize it, but nobody is really surprised-- Least of all the companies funnelling traincars of money into the LLM furnace.

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[–] [email protected] 17 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Here's the cycle we've gone through multiple times and are currently in:

AI winter (low research funding) -> incremental scientific advancement -> breakthrough for new capabilities from multiple incremental advancements to the scientific models over time building on each other (expert systems, LLMs, neutral networks, etc) -> engineering creates new tech products/frameworks/services based on new science -> hype for new tech creates sales and economic activity, research funding, subsidies etc -> (for LLMs we're here) people become familiar with new tech capabilities and limitations through use -> hype spending bubble bursts when overspend doesn't keep up with infinite money line goes up or new research breakthroughs -> AI winter -> etc...

[–] [email protected] 15 points 2 months ago

They predict, not reason....

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago

Someone needs to pull the plug on all of that stuff.

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