this post was submitted on 07 Aug 2023
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Most of what I've seen sounds like Libertarians are actually anarchists who've been misinformed by the dominant culture about what anarchism really is.

What would you say is the reason you identify with libertarianism over anarchism?

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Every anarchist I've ever discussed the matter with has embraced magical thinking as the mechanism for sustaining anarchist decision-making (e.g. rule by consensus) despite threats to the status quo (like an invading despot).

Libertarians, on the other hand, routinely seem to acknowledge that some public goods, e.g. national defense, must be handled by a state actor. Minarchy rather than anarchy.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Also in a radically anarchist state people would completely depend on themselves. As this is impractical they will eventually form connections and cooperate with each other more intensively which in turn obviously needs some rudimentary guidelines. And that's just the beginning of a small state.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's weird whenever I see people talking about anarchy they always seem to forget that humans have family and friends and choose to work together to make things happen without needing an authority creating rules.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago

There is an authority though, one or both parents, or more dominant friends.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I thought Libertarian was just an American thing for people who don't like the Republican candidate but don't want anyone messing with gun or equality laws.

[–] user75736572 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Ther's non American libertarians but I think they're more common in the US

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's definitely more common in the US than elsewhere. Here in Spain where I live there is a Libertarian party but they are sort of a joke, more of a social club than anything else.

I think it's because the US is essentially the only extant country that was explicitly founded on the principles of individual liberty and that element of our culture still runs deep more than two centuries later. We'll see how much longer it survives but for the moment there is still a strong element of it in US culture.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Well, to be fair, the Libertarian Party in the US is kind of a joke. We can't seem to put any kind of serious candidate forward for president.

[–] MomoTimeToDie 0 points 1 year ago

For me, it's a matter of practicality. Because sure, I'd love a perfect system in which everything operates entirely on voluntary cooperation, feel free to toss in a spherical cow with zero air resistance as well. But I don't believe such a solution to be a practical option in reality, at least for the foreseeable future. Its basically a giant instance of the prisoners dillema, just at the scale of state militaries and nuclear weapons. And at that scale, I find it significantly more desirable to hedge our bets against bad actors than to rely on near universal acceptance of an ideal solution.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago

Is our current world system not the natural product of anarchy?

[–] [email protected] -3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Anarchists are historically left. Libertarians are historically right. At least in USA.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Stop right there: Anarchism means that there is no state or anyone that has any competence over you. Libertarians on the other hand support a minimal state that is just there to protect the core rights. Anarchism therefore means in it's essence that you are responsible for managing and protecting your property all by yourself. However most Anarchists tend to accept some forms of deliberate power distribution.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This hardline distinction that you’re drawing between libertarians and anarchists is ridiculous and not rooted in reality. Many libertarians are and have been anarchists. Murray Rothbard and Lysander Spooner are two well-known examples.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So now we are using anarchist and libertarians as synonyms or what? It's just what anarchism means. We can discuss how you interpret this term but you can't change what it means. One is despises aany governmental structure whereas the other thinks a minimal state is necessary. Simple as. Of course these are extremes but I hate it when people say libertarians are right wing anarchists. Rather its the anarchists that are somewhat libertarian.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

“Libertarian” is an umbrella term which can describe many anarchists as well as statists. Again, one of the most popular libertarians is Murray Rothbard, who was an anarcho-capitalist.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Exactly but as an umbrella term it's by far more than anarchism. But you are right I have to change my wording.

[–] [email protected] -3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I'd consider libertarians to want a small government that does very little, while anarchists want none.

A small government would make and enforce laws, have a military, and maybe do some other public goods (though not many).

Anarchism is absolute chaos. Without any sort of government, anything goes. Probably the first thing to happen is a few people seize power, and technically you don't have anarchism anymore, you have warlords.

While a small government wouldn't enforce build codes and wouldn't provide free Healthcare, it's a far cry from no government.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

People have the inherent ability to work together by choice without an authority creating rules, we see it every day. Seems like we could choose to work together to defend each other

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Anarchy in greek means "non-rule". It means, in essence, that no one has any authority over you or your property. So there can be no state and no courts or anything like that, because otherwise you would have to cede power and authority to someone else. In an absolute anarchist society, you would have to protect everything yourself.

But this is practically impossible so most anarchists tend to give away some competences to private companies, collectives or small governments which in the end is nothing else than libertarianism.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

In that case, libertarianism sounds a little more stable, one government that is harder for a warlord to take over and that a company couldn't just buy. Anarchy seems more prone to falling into totalitarianism than libertarianism.

Aside from that, it sounds less like libertarians are actually anarchists, and more like anarchists are actually libertarians.

That said, I guess they're both asking "what's the smallest amount if government possible?".

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

People have friends and family to work together with, that doesn't necessitate an authority creating rules

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

not necessarily in families but at some complexity you can't manage all yourself. You will have to rely on others to protect you or your property when you are working or away and so on. If you need a better seawage system or better roads you will definitely have to ask experts to help you. In the end you will have to create rules together to coordinate. Now you nned somebody to enforce this and so on. Anarchy is more like a reset but I think that human nature will eventually prganize in societies and states. In the best case they define the rules and these rules are as minimal as possible.