this post was submitted on 27 Dec 2023
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Fine
Hamas fights using plain clothes, blending in with the civilian population and uses irregular and dishonorable tactics, like building military bases inside or under Hospitals to use as a human shield.
Or like how most people would call it, they're fucking terrorists.
If you want a more precise legal terms, perhaps violating Geniva conventions, irregular, human shields, asymmetric. These are people who pretend to be civilians while fighting, while kidnapping civilians to use as shields.
firing on a hospital is indefensible.
Unless they store military command centers in the Hospital.
even then.
Legally speaking, it ceases to be a Hospital the moment military command is happening there. Yeah, people are being treated, but if there's a legitimate military target, its a military target and no longer a Hospital.
Don't like it? Then get the United Nations to write a new Geneva Convention. Rules are rules.
That's why its incredibly important to keep civilians and military separated. US Builds a Military base over here, far away from civilians, to make everyone 100% clear what is, or isn't, a legitimate target. Uniforms, etc. etc. all play a role in this.
it's immoral whether you think the rules say it's ok or not.
what's the point? israel ignores them anyway.
Cool. So we have a conflict where everyone ignores the conventions. As what's going on right now. Glad we're on the same page here.
Methinks that will do worse for Gaza though. Hamas was in a position where they should have followed the conventions more, for the protection of their own civilians.
so gaza is independent of israel?
What the fuck are you on about mate?
Hamas is against the two state solution as well. Not even they want two-states. Do you know anything about this conflict?
if they're not another state, then it's not a war.
i thought you were done. do you need help finding the block button?
I generally speaking, don't block people. Presumably you're talking to me because you want the discussion to continue?
not really. ideally you'd realize you're wrong, apologize, edit all your genocide-justifying comments, and stop responding.
And you think making incredibly shitty, one line, poorly thought arguments is going to do that to me?
the truth doesn't need paragraphs.
What truth? The truth that even Hamas doesn't want a 2-state solution? That they've rejected Egypt's and Qatar's calls for peace and the implementation of the most reasonable peace plan offered thus far?
But go ahead, lets see your one-sentence, one line arguments convince people when so much evidence is against your side. Your words are useless blather in the face of the problems they face in that region. Your arguments are so laughably ignorant that its counterproductive to your ideology.
this is just posturing. it doesn't rebutt anything i've said.
You ignored the rebuttal. But that's fine, I'll repeat myself.
Hamas ignores the peace plan. Again, and again, and again. Even when backed and designed by majority Muslim countries like Egypt and Qatar.
this is a red herring. you're distracting from whether israel is committing genocide.
if you were in the warsaw ghetto, would you accept a peace plan?
Are you calling Egypt or Qatar's peace plan akin to Stalin's peace plan to Poland? Are you saying that Egypt or Qatar are on Israel's side as per some military alliance? Where are you even going with this? There's a solid peace plan on the table, right now as we speak, and neither Israel nor Hamas are going for it. And therefore, the war will continue.
The fact that a legitimate and honorable peace has been offered by a reasonably trustworthy 3rd party has everything to do with this situation. Neither Israel, nor Hamas (and therefore, the current leaders of Gaza), want peace. So war continues.
You'll do far more good yelling at the people of Gaza (or Israelis) to enact the Egyptian peaceplan ASAP. Or alternatively, pointing out what's exactly wrong with Egypt's plan.
i'm saying gaza is a ghetto and i would fight the nazis.
besides your rhetorical questions, this is comment is entirely personal attacks.
This isn't rhetorical. We have literally a plan that would stop both Israel and Hamas from fighting for the near future and you're responding to me with weird ass Poland analogies.
Is the Egyptian peace plan reasonable? Can you even look at it for a second and prove to me that you have any semblance of care for this situation?
your raising this plan as a red herring. you still haven't admitted that israel has done terrible things and are now trying to act like its all in the past and all that matters is what egypt has proposed.
i won't fall for this. i won't ignore the genocide.
Israel can do terrible things without it being a genocide.
The USA's bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were terrible things. But they were not genocidal.
You're the one fixated on calling it a genocide. I'm more than happy to say that Israel's settlers in the West Bank are assholes or that the Bibi government is full of right-wing power mongers or whatever. But genocide is a completely different word yo and shouldn't be used so wantonly.
but it is a genocide, so this is moot.
so WWII analogies are fine, but only wehn you use them to excuse genocide.
Apparently you like WW2, so I'm trying to work with you here. The millions of people the USA killed in Japan do not constitute a genocide. And Japan agrees with us. War is war. A genocide is a well defined thing. A systematic erasure of a culture, a people. The closest thing to a genocide in Israel right now is West Bank IMO, with the settler issue which is causing displacements and whatever. But that's not the Gaza situation you're talking about.
but what's happening in gaza is not a war because gaza is a ghetto inside israel. it's a genocide.
Yeah. I'll call it at this point. I'm not sure if there's much usefulness to this discussion to me anymore. We've covered this topic already.
I thought you were done hours ago. bye.
Are you randomly going to contact me again in a few minutes? As I said, I try not to block people. But we can let this discussion die out if you want.
But my inbox is remains open if you want to continue discussing. I just personally don't want us going in circles. So if you're serious about letting this discussion lie, I'm cool with it.
I'm not the one who has lied twice about walking away.
Of course they don't, this has become a meme conflict with people fully ignoring reality.
The arguments people make to excuse Hamas make it incredibly clear that they're not even slightly interested in reality, they're trying to make weird logical traps as if they can magicly obscure the reality àn organisation with soldiers trained and funded by Iran and other islamist organisations is hellbent on the total direction of Israel and is doing absolutely atrocious things to try and achieve those goals.
If they had to continually hope the rockets getting fired at their house every day don't get through then they wouldn't be sitting back saying 'oh they're not technically a terrorist organisation and not technically a nation state so we should just let them carry on trying to kill us'
I'm not saying everything Israel have ever done is good or that there aren't bad Israelies but the situation is painfully complex and pretending it isn't just makes people look dumb
does Israel recognize a Palestinian state? it seems like they own Gaza when they want to treat them like subjects, and they don't when they want to treat them like an opposing state.
Does Hamas was to be treated as a state?
Part of that means telling and training your combatants to wear a uniform, so your enemies at war can tell the difference between civilians and combatants.
Wearing civilian clothes while attacking and killing people is literally a terrorist tactic. You aren't supposed to blend into the crowds and use them as human shields.
so Gaza isn't an independent state?
They certainly don't act like one, not with Hamas as leading them.
That's part of the problem. I think the PLO or PLA might be better leaders for them.
Did you look at the Egyptian peace deal? No one wants Hamas running Gaza anymore. Hamas has failed miserably and even the Muslim countries of Egypt and Qatar include new governments as part of the peace deal.
if Gaza isn't independent then they can't be committing war crimes. it's just regular crime. and Israel collectively punishing the ethnic minority are the ones committing war crimes.
There is no collective punishment, measures aren't being done to punish but to limit the effectiveness of people actively trying to kill them.
If you have to hide behind 'yes what we're doing would be war crimes but technically we're not a nation' then it doesn't really change anything, regardless of what their actions are labelled they must be stopped and Israel is taking the measures it feels are needed to do this while also trying to limit the negative effects to other people caught up in this.
destroying homes and hospitals, shutting off critical infrastructure, bombing city blocks is definitely collective punishment.
if hamas built a tunnel under my local hospital, I would not be okay with anyone firing missiles at the hospital.
Uh huh....
As I said before: go talk to a soldier about this stuff. You clearly need someone who has actually dealt with war-time issues to talk with you on some basics. I've done my part at this point, but I can't just baby-sit you all day and secondly, I'm not (and never have been a soldier). I just know a few of them and we've had this discussion before. So all my knowledge is 2nd hand.
There are conventions at war, and even the dumbest grunt Private First Class receives training on these matters and have to study up on these issues (every soldier in the US Military is trained to know when, or when not, it is legal to shoot and kill). So this is something that literally any veteran in your life can discuss with you to a far deeper level than I can.
"War crimes" aren't crimes because some police officer will catch you. "War crimes" are actions unbecoming of a proper organization and cause the enemy to harm your side even more. Ex: hiding a gun on your person while surrendering, and then killing enemies with it after pretending to surrender is a war crime. Its not "illegal" per se (there's no organization who will arrest you). It just causes the enemy to refuse surrenders and harms the overall path of the war.
so gaza is an independent country?
no, it doesn't CAUSE this. it is an excuse that they will use to kill people who are surrendering, even if it's the hostages they claim they are trying to free.
Hamas is a political party. does likud wear plain clothes?
We literally have footage of Oct 7th with Hamas's soldiers attacking and taking hostages and what they were wearing.
They absolutely violate the dress codes of war.
so Gaza is an independent state?