cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/8181688
undefined
this post was submitted on 13 Nov 2023
253 points (82.7% liked)
Anarchism
1450 readers
8 users here now
Discuss anarchist praxis and philosophy. Don't take yourselves too seriously.
Other anarchist comms
- [email protected]
- [email protected]
- [email protected]
- [email protected]
- [email protected]
- [email protected]
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
The vast majority of the people here found their way into the left through learning in the online posting grounds before eventually joining orgs. Anyone that thinks what we do online doesn't matter is not really thinking straight.
You didn't really answer the question though and it concerns me. Are you opposed to the Palestinian resistance currently fighting for freedom?
Oh come off of it. There's a pretty big difference between such struggles and the impact of arguing online.
I also don't answer because I don't like to be interrogated like this.
No. There fundamentally is not.
This space is not "pretend" while the offline world is "real". The people here are real people (I hope lmao) and the emotions people have here are real.
One day we will all be thrown into our own very real resistance. Are you willing to die for it? I am. I've said many times that I will die in bed an old lady in a currently non-existent socialist state or I will die in the fighting to bring it about.
We post here and have some fun and argue and do all sorts of shit in our off time. But in our on time? A lot of us are genuinely active in political orgs. Here in the UK it might be resisting landlord evictions through Acorn, performing party work or shutting down weapons factories through Palestine Action. Do you think sectarianism would benefit orgs like Palestine Action shutting down zionist weapons factories? Whose principle need is BODIES willing to get on rooftops and smash up these buildings and get arrested? Does reducing the pool of people that would join that org benefit them in any way by being sectarians? Does it matter whether someone on the roof of an israeli weapons factory waves a black flag or a red flag? Of course it doesn't. And the people who try to flare up sectarian bullshit anywhere are rightfully shouted down or expelled because all they are functionally doing by punching left is weakening those orgs and their ability to do praxis.
That doesn't change online. The number of people who actually transfer from the online space to offline organising is directly tied to the sectarian bullshit that occurs. There are dumbass marxists that refuse to take part at certain orgs because of some anarchist sectarian bullshit and there are dumbass anarchists that refuse to take part in some socialist led things because of sectarian bullshit.
If I saw anyone at the march in London this weekend say a single fucking word about sectarian shit I would have punched them in the face.
This shit hurts the left. There is no case for it benefiting the left in any way.
One day we will all be in an existential armed struggle ourselves. Really consider the priorities. There is no benefit to any of this shit, and in fact it risks harming support for Palestine. I assume you're not anti-Palestine, even though you won't state it. If you can support Palestinian resistance despite Hamas, you can support marxist-leninists despite sectarian disagreement, and you already are doing just that by supporting Palestine. Not to mention that almost every single fucking pro Palestine march currently happening is being organised by the "tankies" you're currently railing against.
Oh and just in case - anyone that doesn't support Palestine deserves a brick to the back of the head.
We've spoken about this before, you and me, iirc. So long as y'all keep doing anarchist direct action for mutual aid, we can be allies. Once you start trying to seize hierarchical control like some illuminated vanguard, is where it gets difficult.
This meme is about exactly this difficulty.
Let's be serious for a moment, y'all descended on me shit-posting about well known problems anarchists had with MLs. Y'all don't pretend you don't know what I'm talking about. You had the counter-arguments ready to post. But I'm not here to debate with you and we won't solve these disagreements here. You know what you know, I know what I know. We can agree to disagree.
But then y'all got mad that I didn't debate 12 people at a time, as if I have nothing better to do with my life on the comments of a shitpost. You can't handle one single anarchist making one single meme in an obscure anarchist sub.
This all has nothing about us being able to collaborate on things that matter. When we do those actions, nobody is going to say "Aha, I remember what you wrote in lemmy.dbzer0.com that one time about leftist unity". This is all about 1) the ego of those hexbear tankies who couldn't handle not being debated and 2) The shitposters of hexbear who just came here to have flamewars because the mods of hexbear apparently don't control anything anymore and your "left unity" only goes so much as someone disagreeing with your takes and then they're a "liberal" and therefore fair game.
I am honestly not upset. I'm am however just disappointed at the greater hexbear behaviour..
I think the problem here is that this "shitposting" comes off as... Completely anti collaboration?
That's why it's a problem. Maybe you're in favour of collaboration. But do younger anarchists realise that? Does the general bulk of the numbers realise that? Or is this kind of posting actually working entirely against the left overall because it splits us? Because a significant portion of people genuinely take it to heart and believe it. How many spaces actively purge marxists now because of "aaaaaa tankies"? That's occurring because of this kind of propaganda. Is it helping anyone? Fuck no it's not. Look at every single lemmy community where we've been purged, are they better? They're far right shit holes even if there's a handful of people trying to change that, they're utterly dominated by the worst people.
If the right split like the left does we'd be in power in half of europe.
The right does split like the left. Hell, sometimes they're straight up shooting each other.
Look, everyone has their own experiences. I know plenty of anarchists who won't even go near MLs because of how extremely traitorous they are right now. You don't come where I come from. You don't know my experiences. Some anarchists mistrusts MLs with very good reasons and that's fine. And it's also fine to shitpost about it in an anarchist forum without having half of hexbear come in like a rampage of sealions.
And given how quickly hexbears were to close ranks and piledive me from orbit, and then gaslight me on top, well, let's just say my impression has not improved.
Extremely rarely, although that is what is occurring in Spain right now.
The people for left-unity are going to feel attacked by anti-left-unity posting. This is just a fact.
When people feel attacked the result of that shouldn't really be that surprising, should it? Especially when the spread of that rhetoric would actively harm hexbear. People are going to be protective of something they see as integral to the only space on the internet that they feel safe.
Hexbears going over to an anarchist space, and showing their asses to the world as either sealions or toxic trolls is fairly counter-productive.
Or do you think this has been a good showing has had a positive result for hexbear in any sense?
I think everyone looks fucking ridiculous. You, me, everyone. There is never and there has never been a single sectarian argument where everyone involved did not look like a clown.
Which is precisely why people should not even start that shit.
(Some) Anarchist, will continue not believing in Left Unity. Sorry, but I don't ascribe to this ML position on "anti-sectarianism". People are going to continue starting this shit. It's up to hexbear to not make it end up...well, like this.
It's not just an "ML position", in fact it's not an ML position at all and there is no ML party with that position. Your attempts to frame it as one are sus.
You. You're the "people". You are saying "I'm going to do this more".
Really don't be surprised when this completely derails into hostility and destroys any kind of positive relationship you attempted to build. Anyway I'm disengaging now. Please don't call me back in here.
"Anti-sectariansim" is an ML keyword. Anarchists don't talk like that. you may think this is a generic thing, but it's not.
They sure talk about it a lot though.
Ah I see we started poisoning that well already...
You realize I just crossposted this meme, yes?
And if you think the Anarchist distrust for MLs is not a common phenomenon, then you've been in that hexbear echo chamber way too long.
I don't know if you noticed, I haven't tried to build any relationship with MLs. I don't trust them. Even less so since today. Even less since y'all started implying fedjacketing shit. You do your thing, I do mine. I've merely left my door open because I think you peeps have sometimes valid criticisms against libs and it's good to be kept on edge from the left. Don't mistake this with me trying to make alliances with tankies who would put me against the wall first chance they got.
Mate what part of trying to disengage do you not fucking understand? I'm not reading that shit, fuck off and stop.
You have a completely distorted view of the historical projects of MLs. The point of a vanguard is not unilateral command, it is to be a body that is entirely concerned with political organization and engagement while other people have other jobs that take up more of their effort. That does not mean the vanguard dictates to everyone else, but rather that it seeks to find ways to put the feedback from everyone else into practical action.
I swear, just read a single fucking book.
You're a two-faced prick, the people trying to engage are bad and the people being lazy like you are are also bad. What is there to do that is good? Oh right, capitulate. Meanwhile you yourself whine about "left unity" and how unfair it is that the mean tankies call you a liberal when you've been here sneering the whole fucking time about how "dae tankies don't fall under left unity because state capitalism is rightist". Fuck off.
No, I just don't have any more patience for you gaslighters.
I.just.posted.a.meme. I don't owe you a fucking debate. And I don't owe you to be your punching bag either. Fuck off with your entitlement.
No mate, I'm just pointing out your hypocricy
Again, there is no correct way to disagree, because you are operating from a "tankies bad" orthodoxy. Whatever story you tell is just some bullshit because any other approach to disagreeing would also be met with the same pathologizing and accusation.
All you have is radlib indignation plus a routine that was tired on 4chan well over a decade ago: "It's just a joke bro. Yeah, I support everything it says, but it's just a joke bro, so you can't object. Jester's privilege or some shit"
There is no left unity with someone who calls your ideology one of wanton murder. You are plainly the one who started the dispute since none of those dang tankies posted here before you made the post calling them butchers. There are lots of good anarchists -- like Nakoichi (elsewhere in the thread, being ignored by you) -- you're a radlib shitstain who wants to at all times be aggrieved while also standing smugly above it all. Just go back to whatever fucking liberal party mama and papa are telling you to support, you'll fit in better there.
You can just...fuck off? You don't have to tell me you disagree 100 times.
Oh no, the meme is right. It's not a joke. The point is, I don't owe you a debate. I don't owe you shit.
You're goddamn right right there's no left unity. What there is, is MLs using anarchists before disposing them in a ditch.
So what. What kind of entitlement do you think you have that you deserve a debate every time?
And you're a typical sealion. Just classic entitled behaviour, backed by your toxic mates as a mob, and then insults when the others don't play your game.
I'm not appealing to a sense of debt [i.e. "owing"], I'm appealing to the idea of intellectual integrity, though it is plain that you have none. My point is that your endless fucking whining about people being rude to you is completely worthless considering the OP. You allow no avenue for healthy disagreement and characterize all disagreement as somehow evil or pathological as though the specific content of the disagreement matters, but you'd be saying basically the same thing no matter what because you are starting from a red scare orthodoxy. You're just sticking your head in the ground like an ostrich.
I told you from the start I don't want to debate. I told you civilly. I told you less civily. I told you trollishly. I. don't. owe. You. A. Debate.
I never stopped you from disagreeing with me. I never stopped you from having a fucking platform in my own space. I just didn't debate.
Why the fuck can you sealions not get this through your skull? You can't force people to debate either with civility or with a pack of toxic hexbears. All you did today display hexbear scumbuggery when you didn't get your way.
I think you just decided you get off on feeling persecuted, just like the OP suggests
Oh I just it for the attention ye?
I struggle to think of a better explanation when you complain so fucking much about it
Of course, who doesn't like a harassment campaign.
No, it's because you don't have a leg to stand on and you're an intellectually dishonest coward who wants to fling shit and then cry when people push back
I didn't fling anything, y'all came to my place, remember? Also stop acting like a "debate me, bro" already! You won't goad me 😁
It's just despicable playing these precious little rhetorical games while using historical deaths (and one or two inventions) as props for your atrocity propaganda, all to fear monger about people who generally have a common interest with the rest of the left in a social context where the right wing is overwhelmingly more powerful. Just textbook wrecker behavior.
Man why would I ever ally with a scumbag like you? You turned into a toxic sludge the moment I didn't indulge your sealioning.
The best part about this meme is seeing so many of you go full masks off publicly
"The tankie was rude to me when I accused him of having an ideology of senseless murder, his rudeness proves we shouldn't have a political coalition"
And the murder too
But we can't talk about the "murder" because then that's me being a debate bro, even as you tacitly admit to it being bullshit in the comments (Stalin not sending you enough bullets is not the same as shooting you, sorry!)
Yes, why do you think I owe you a discussion? Y'all are a bunch of entitled motherfuckers. Just calle me a "radlib" in your dunk tank and it's good no?
There's a reason why the term sealion exists.
Owe, owe, owe. You keep using that word, but I don't think I have. My argument is not that you owe anything, it's that if we are to pretend you are acting in good-faith, then there must be a healthy way for disagreement to exist (see you model the opposite in your title, how those dang tankies hate dissent). What I dislike is parading around completely fatuous claims and treating objections as pathological.
I fucking let you mother truckers run amok in my space to disagree like a bunch of toxic monkeys. If that's not leaving space for "healthy disagreement" I don't know what is!
But that's not enough is it? No if you don't debate me specifically it's not enough.
But you point to everything said as pathology and evidence of evil, and it's unclear that any other disagreeing responses would have been met more kindly.
What? I don't point to "everything said". I pointed 2 things. Entitled sealions like you who didn't take no for an answer and just became a toxic af (as sealions are wont to do) and the hexbear mob which came here to support said sealions with harassment.
I don't trust tankies. I believe that they will betray anarchists in every revolution. Y'all attitude here hasn't helped. But I was perfectly capable of talking to you people like awoo who didn't try to sealion me.
But to just go on collective campaign of harassment because I don't trust y'all and dare to express this publicly and then tell me I'm being unreasonable in my reaction . Like what?
"Why are people bothered by being called butchers!?!?!"
If this is the first time you've seen anarchists who don't trust ml tp not to betray them after a revolution, then you haven't seen met enough anarchists. I don't know what to tell you.
But to react to anarchists who express this like a sealion backed by a harassing mob is just an epic self own man.
I've seen this bit before, literally maybe my first comment is how played-out this is.
See, this is what I mean. "Epic self-own, broski" like, how could one disagree without that being your response?
Omg. Mate disagree all you want. Write a whole epic takedown for all I care. I haven't banned you. Just don't expect me to debate you.
My point is that your inability to accept I won't debate you on this and then your immediate turn to insults along with the rest of the hexbears is, let's say, not endearing.
Why do you complain about insults when you say much worse shit than I ever did in the OP?
I don't care about your insults. I've left half of hexbear insult me in this thread.