this post was submitted on 07 Oct 2023
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In my opinion this is an "everyone sucks here" situation and no one knows how to approach it as a result.
Maybe stop killing each other and take it from there? No? More rockets and human rights abuse? Yeah that'll work...
Israel could start by ending apartheid and allowing the Palestinian people a modicum of dignity and representation in government, or let them have their own state.
I would agree in principle, but there are a few issues that need to be resolved:
Stop obfuscating while the United States keeps giving Israel billions to maintain apartheid and continue the genocide against the Palestinian people
It's not that simple. A lot of technology comes from Israel, including the origins of the Intel core iX design and a lot of medical ai and metsec technology. we benefit from the status quoe probably more than Israel does.
As a person in one of those industries you mentioned, there is nothing special about what they do, that cannot be done elsewhere (and with higher quality.)
1947 UN Partition looks the best
Wasn’t there another one or is that the original one.
And failing that, the appropriate reaction from Hamas is to fire missiles at Israeli civlians? Fuck off.
Well given that Gaza is a defacto prison, they could also beg and pray, like they did for the last 40 years without effect. When you are faced with an opressive regime, there is only giving up or fighting. And it is not exactly like Hamas can build rockets with GPS or other sophisticated aiming systems like Israel or NATO can.
Have you seen even a single damn wiki article about this place, let alone read a book?
yes i did. And in none of them just begging in praying helped their situation.
If the Palestinians lay down their arms the war is over. If the Israelis lay down their arms they'd get genocided. Hamas explicitly calls for death to the Jews and they have deliberately targeted civilian populations time and time again. Hamas doesn't want a negotiated solution to the conflict, they want a Final Solution to the Jewish Question. There is one side here that can just stop the violence, and it's not Israel.
If Palestinians lay down their weapons they are still driven off their land, getting murdered by fundamentalist settlers, killed by IDF and imprisoned in Gaza and the West bank.
Also many Israeli politicians are very outspoken about wanting to commit Genocide, denying Palestinians being humans and denying them being a people.
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2017-05-23/ty-article/.premium/the-israeli-mk-heralding-genocide-against-palestinians/0000017f-e2ae-d804-ad7f-f3feb9200000
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/mar/01/israelandthepalestinians1
https://www.dailysabah.com/world/mid-east/israeli-lawmakers-kill-all-palestinians-remarks-resurface
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/01/middleeast/west-bank-smotrich-ned-price-intl/index.html
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/no-such-thing-as-palestinian-people-top-israeli-minister-says
Yes, they can.
That's generally what happens when you treat people less than human long enough; they fight back.
Fight back by murdering and raping civilians? Do not forget Hamas does have a majority support according to most sources.
Israel definitely has issues with Palestinian human rights violations but there's a difference between throwing a family out of a house and razing it or shooting a kid that's trying to storm a military outpost and dragging innocent civilians from a peace concert and raping and murdering them.
Just look at what Hamas, again - an organization with majority support that does not keep any secrets around wanting to murder Jewish people, is doing and you might understand why Israel has been handling the entire situation with an iron fist. Now that iron fist will fall down and it will be innocent Palestinians suffering for Hamas' crimes.
Hamas doesn't represent all Palestinians. Fuck off.
They literally are the representative government of the region that started the attack and is getting attacked. They literally represent the Gaza Strip.
Hamas is about as "representative" of the population of Gaza as Kim Jong Un is of the North Korean people.
Both countries not even remotely resemble a political environment where free and fair elections are possible. Heck Hamas has killed way more Palestinians than Israelis and that includes their recent "success". They are a dictatorship which uses indoctrination, intimidation and murder to stay in power.
So why are we defending Hamas here? If life under them is really so fucking shit why aren't the Palestinians working with the Israelis to take them out?
I'm not defending them. Or do you seriously think me calling them a freaking dictatorship is a positive view of them? Since apparently a lot of people don't understand it, I'm just explaining how it is. You asking "why don't they just get rid of Hamas" is a perfect example. Because they are an authoritarian regime which has absolute no problem of killing everyone who speaks out against them. And then of course there is the indoctrination part which I also noted. That's the same stupid question like "Why don't Russians demonstrate against the war?" when those who do end in prison.
People acting like Hamas is a perfectly legitimate elected party is just so bloody stupid. The fact that the last "election" was 16 years ago should be more than enough for everyone to grasp as deeply undemocratic. And then of course they fail in pretty much every other aspect of what countries usually provide in an democratic country such as freedom of speech and freedom of the press. They also definitely don't have a proper separation of power. They do provide some assistance to their population to keep them on their side, but that's basically the same shit the Mafia did and they certainly aren't representative of the areas they control.
Like the USSR occupied and incorporated a bunch of surrounding countries?
Except, you know, Israel literally created Hamas to put to bed any risk of Palestine uniting under an effective, secular government.
This is 9/11 for Israel in more ways than one.
One day we will learn stop arming and funding religious extremists I'm sure.
Yeah, except war is good for economy / capitalism, so they won't stop funding / arming. That's probably the real enemy, if they had all been suffocated of weapons and fighting resources, war probably would have been over long ago.
That would have meant Israel would stop fucking with Palestinian civilians before these rockets were fired.
While I get the “both sides” argument, Israel is absolutely the aggressor here and should be put a fucking leash like NK.
Israel the aggressor on average by a long shot, but not this time.
Yes, clearly….
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/4/8/israel-is-creating-an-explosive-situation-in-al-aqsa
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/4/15/israeli-forces-raid-al-aqsa-mosque-over-50-palestinians-injured
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/7/27/israels-far-right-minister-leads-incursion-of-al-aqsa-compound
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/5/5/israeli-forces-storm-al-aqsa-as-hundreds-of-settlers-gather
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/6/26/israel-approves-plans-for-thousands-of-illegal-settlement-homes
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/6/palestinian-killed-as-israeli-settlers-attack-west-bank-town-of-huwara
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/6/20/un-chief-tells-israel-to-halt-illegal-settlements-in-palestine
Hamas started this one with a coordinated attack on 5000(?) locations.
Not to mention that for the hardliners who are in charge of the whole situation on both sides are benefiting from an everlasting conflict to stay in power! What do they care if innocent people (theirs or the "enemies") are dying?
That would be great for every nation that has ever existed but sadly that's not how things work. Unsolvable conflicting interests more often than not are solved by brute force.