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I am hesitant to put my hands on the chest of a woman who hasn't given consent.
Understandable, but you only need to do it if there is no pulse. If you are doing chest compressions to save their life, I am sure the majority would be quite happy with not dying. You don't need to take off their top, and you are pressing on their sternum rather than their breasts. You can't really mistake CPR for anything else if you are doing it correctly.
Well, you do if using AED. Tom Scott has video on those too: https://youtu.be/ecVHYg4_vZw
I know, but I was just assuming chest compressions, no other tools. If you're strapping electrodes to an unconscious person, and the machine is talking you through the CPR steps, it's even less likely to be assumed to be anything than what it is.
You would think that, but the reality is different.
You can’t, that doesn’t mean that some white knight in the crowd doesn’t.
While I agree the risk is low, it’s not zero.
Youre afraid to save a persons life because there is a near zero chance that a very unlikely hypothetical situation may occur? Youre okay with letting someone die because you might get verbally chided, or worse, have someone misunderstand and be slightly rough with you? Wow.
I honestly can't imagine being this scared of the world.
You can’t say “near zero” you don’t have the numbers.
It depends entirely on circumstance.
And you know that.
But it’s wonderful that you want to judge me as a keyboard warrior. I applaud how tough you are. Have a nice day.
Please, give me any numbers that show people have been harassed, threatened or injured while performing CPR on a women.
You consider it an unlikely but possible threat. I would like to see what data informs that threat to you.
I expect its none, and instead you just want to feel persecuted because "women standing up for themselves in modern society makes me scared, so im going to pretend thats why i wont help a women that's dying."
Again, fear driven and sad.
We’re both aware that the numbers don’t exist and aren’t kept.
Suggesting that’s a fault in my argument but not yours is asking me to provide evidence to prove your point wrong. “Burden of proof” fallacy if you will.
But that’s not the point. Plenty of people get accused of impropriety for doing less than lifting a woman’s shirt…. And if I have to apply a defibrillator, it’s not going to do much if I don’t get it under her shirt.
We both know that reaching under her shirt can be perceived poorly especially if someone doesn’t notice the defibrillator.
But I’ll back up my statements with references
https://www.heart.org/en/news/2020/11/23/why-people-fear-performing-cpr-on-women-and-what-to-do-about-it
Will you do the same? Or will you continue to ask me for information to back up your arguments?
You made the suggestion that it was “near zero” and now you’re asking me for proof that it isn’t near zero.
Youre making the claim that there is some danger here, and your defense is "I can't find any proof there is danger here?"
The simple truth is that there is no danger in this circumstance, but if you accepted that you would have no argument for not assisting a person dying.
Your article points to a 45%/39% male to female assistance rate. The article doesnt give exact numbers, but says some women are less likely to perform CPR on women for fear of harming them. So if we say of that 6%, 3% are women that dont perform CPR for the above, we have 3% of men who are afraid to try to save a womans life because of a non existent threat. It sounds like youre one of those 3% of fearful men.
Id ask for the dying womans sake, that you push past your fear and help keep another person alive. Be strong, for them. Be brave, for yourself.
Fear is the mindkiller. Dont let it control you. Do the right thing instead.
Okay so you can’t see any danger in someone getting the wrong perception when I am removing parts of the shirt of an unconscious woman to put on a defibrillator? Not even if they don’t see the defibrillator?
You’re either not capable of understanding the point or arguing in bad faith.
But back to the point…. You said there was zero risk, I provided an article that showed that this isn’t just my personal feeling, but a common perception of risk, be it real or just perceived.
And I asked you to back up your claims, instead you double down and show nothing to support your point. You claim it is a simple truth in order to downplay your lack of data.
Between the mix of bad faith arguments and trying to make this personal (about whether I would act or not) you don’t seem like you’d accept a truth if it disagreed with your personal narrative. This debate seems fruitless, so I’m done. Have a nice day.
You made a claim:
"this action has risk."
You then provided no evidence at all of that risk, just an article talking about other fearful people like yourself imagining that there might be a risk. Being cowardly is not evidence of a risk, no matter how large or small the group of cowards is.
Now you're asking me to prove a negative, to disprove your absolutely nothing. Okay, glad to. Since you provided zero evidence of risk, and even admitted there is no recorded case of this risk happening, then its easy to see that there is no risk. Turns out something has to exist for it to exist. Tricky, that.
Thats your gotcha argument? "I have no evidence this exists, and neither do you because it doesn't exist, so therefore it does exist?"
Is this your first day on the internet?
Best rebuttal is calling people cowards eh?
You win, but I wish you would reconsider that I may have a point despite your distaste for it.
Have a nice day.
And if someone gets the wrong perception so what? And what of the other x+ people seeing you do the right thing?
I'd 100% cunt punt someone trying to attack someone performing life saving procedures on someone in crisis
This isn't about giving lifesaving procedures, this is days latter when someone realizes what happens. There is plenty or evidence that 'bad touch' happened, and so lacking good Samaritan laws the law was violated and that is all we need to arrest someone. This type of harassment has happened, but I have no idea how often it does .
It's pretty wild that you're getting on someone's case about lacking evidence when you've utterly failed to provide any of your own that any one has ever actually been hassled for giving CPR to a woman.
I provided a link showing that this risk, real or perceived is prevalent.
But you didn’t read that, did you?
I also didn’t make the case that I knew the numbers on the risk, in fact I made the case that neither of us know. So the burden of proof is on the person making the claim of knowing the risk. That’s not me.
But you’re not gonna listen to that either.
😉 have a nice day.
Suddenly trying to substitute "perceived risk" for "real risk" is a rather weaselly way to make an argument about real risk.
Yes, and it was an odd article for you to link to since it didn't at all support your claim about there being real risk. Perceptions do not always align with reality, and you know that.
You've been making the claim in almost every comment that there's a real risk of someone being accused of a sex crime while performing CPR. You've provided no evidence for that risk. You've admitted that you have no evidence of that risk. Yet you still keep claiming it's a real risk. You don't just get to say, "Well neither of us know for sure therefore you must accept my claim". That's ridiculous.
Have a nice day.
If neither of us have proof either way, it’s a stalemate. That doesn’t make me wrong, but it doesn’t make me right.
Given that if a bra has underwire, I may have to remove it for a defibrillator, you can’t perceive a possible misunderstanding?
The risk isn’t necessarily legal, but social so. A court case isn’t required for it to be real.
Kim wright is a case where the man was sued. You don’t see many cases because they’re laughed out of court, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t damage done.
I have 2 REAL questions for you.
If there’s zero risk to being accused of harm when you’re trying to help, why do Good Samaritan laws exist? What was the need?
Can you perceive a possible misinterpretation when I have to remove an unconscious woman’s garments including bra for a defibrillator?
I know paramedics who got formal complaints about this. Their boss ignored as the paramedics were acting as trained.
I am a paramedic, these comments have lost me. At least in the United States there is a 0% chance anything will happen if someone does CPR on another while acting in good faith.
This does exclude some some uncomfortable situations where family is screaming at me that I’m not doing enough or that I need to help them and people have appeared to be close to getting violent but I’ve never been attacked, and if someone is threatening another individual that is trying to help, leave. We can’t help other people if we become another person who needs help.
But I’ve done CPR on a lot of people, it’s violent. No one around will ever have to wonder what is being done, it is very clear and I don’t believe it is possible to confuse with touching an unconscious person inappropriately. Again, these comments have lost me. Maybe if some of these people would see a resuscitation attempt, they’d probably realize once the patient is spitting up blood from how violently their chest is being pushed on, there is no way to misinterpret CPR for groping.
You're the one who claimed near zero, onus is on you.
Verbally chided? Getting sued for SA and getting your life ruined doesn't really seem like "verbally chided". Yeah, I'd probably let people die because my life is more important.
Yes, I am.
I'm not risking jail over this crap. Lost a job over it once, so I have personal, first-hand experience with the bullshit.
CPR does not save lives. It preserves a dead body until an AED or ambulance can bring it back to life. You need to remove her shirt and often bra (if there is a wire it must go, otherwise only if in the way) to use an AED so if some item of clothing is in the way don't worry about removing it.
Note that the above is generic CPR training that doesn't respect local laws which can say something different.
AED's will not help someone whose heart is stopped (i.e. no pulse). They are used to shock the heart into restoring its normal rhythm. It will not start a heart that has stopped beating.
Yeahhhh... and it makes me glad that the 'A' part in AED exists, because there are apparently a not insignificant number of people who have gotten their CPR training from TV.
CPR absolutely does save lives. The success rate outside hospitals is around 10%. That's thousands of lives saved every year.
Please do not say CPR does not save lives, it 100% does. And in the United States our Good Samaritan laws protect anyone from liability if they are acting in good faith trying to help someone.
I’m a paramedic in the United States, hold a certification as a flight medic, nothing I can bring, in a helicopter or an ambulance will do anything for anyone if high quality CPR isn’t performed.
To break things down, yes in adults early defibrillation does make a huge difference but in kids it is literally high quality CPR that saves them. If you’d like I’d be happy to break down the details of resuscitation, but without CPR until I can get there and attempt resuscitation, then no matter how much I throw at someone to try to get their heart beating again, they’ll still be brain dead.
My CPR instructors put it the way I wrote it to encourage us to spend more effort on getting the AED and paramedics there fast. If you do CPR before the AED/paramedics is on the way you are wasting time, but getting those has been started CPR is important. However this is clearly semantics, I think we are all in agreement that CPR is important.
Not all states have "good Samaritan" laws. Most do, but if you live in the exception you might suffer harassment after doing CPR, including go to court - odds are the court will throw the case out, but it will still be annoying to do the right thing in those states. Though even lacking such laws, the odds that anything will happen are low.
Also not everyone lives in America. In more conservative places in Asia, touching a random woman (even if she is unconscious) and clearly in need of help is really asking to be judged.
And if a video with accusatory narration is posted on tiktok or something, you're basically done for. Especially in a small town or country. You're basically doxxed and won't be easily hired for work because background checks are easily done, and the company (basically the HR) isn't going to risk the bad rep of hiring a potential molester, rapist, etc even if it's just an accusation by random people.
Sorry forgot about this post, but it us an important topic to me. I’m only speaking for the United States All 50 states and the District of Columbia have a good Samaritan law, in addition to Federal laws for specific circumstances.
And I agree some of this is just getting into semantics but yes get an AED if one is available, early defibrillation is without a doubt the best way to increase survival rates also activate emergency services as soon as possible there are things we carry that can help if the patient is receiving adequate CPR prior to our arrival, those steps are crucial. But ensure that you minimize any time spent not provided high quality CPR. Without blood flowing to the patients brain, it starts to die. Once the brain is dead there is nothing in modern medicine that can revive it.
I don’t have an argument if someone is concerned about consequences for helping another person. I do what I do so I can sleep at night knowing I did what I believed was best and I did it to the best of my abilities. If I have to go to court then so be it, the bonus for me going to court is at least I’ll get to meet someone I’ve helped successfully resuscitate, that alone would make going to court worth it, independent of any verdict that is rendered. But that’s just me, I’ve had to pronounce a lot of people. I’ve had one or two go into cardiac arrest in front of my and then after treating them they talked to me during the ride to the hospital and I know I’ve had a handful of people that made a full and complete neurological recovery, but I’ve never gotten to meet any of them, which is also fine, but it would be neat to get to talk to one of them and hear their side of the experience.
I'm pretty sure most places in the states have laws protecting people but there have been people who were sued for giving cpr to someone who wasn't very grateful.
Good Samaritan laws.