this post was submitted on 06 Sep 2023
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[–] [email protected] 39 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (4 children)

If Ukraine enters peace talks now, have they gained anything or put their country in a better position since the original peace talks, which were sabotaged by Boris Johnson and British intelligence, over a year ago? Have they gained any significant territory since what was proposed then? Is their army in a stronger position? Are any gains since then worth the losses?

Just looking at it from a purely pragmatic and realpolitik perspective, I don't see how anyone can argue that Ukraine has gained anything significant in this stalemate of a conflict. If they get similar results now, as what was on the table originally at the first peace talks, it means that their Western backers essentially sold a pipe dream to Ukraine that never materialised. Is the collective West ready to explain that to Ukraine, and the rest of the world? That they used Ukraine as a testbed for their weaponry against Russia, sold Ukraine a utopian fantasy that they'd be able to regain significant territory using Western weapons and tactics which never happened, and hundreds of tens to hundreds of thousands of people got killed or injured to accomplish very little.

[–] [email protected] 32 points 11 months ago

Turns out that an offensive is really hard. Who would've thought? Definitely not centuries of military doctrine.

[–] Apollo 21 points 11 months ago (1 children)

According to Ukraine it was uncovering the evidence of atrocities such as Bucha that ended any chance of peace talks early doors.

Uncovering mass graves of civillians is likely to do that mind you.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

To provide context, we had a large number of videos coming out early in the war showing civilians taking up arms and otherwise impeding the invasion. They aren't legal combatants by international law, but they're not exactly civilians that got caught in the crossfire: they put themselves there.

[–] Apollo -1 points 11 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 0 points 11 months ago

Nice response.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 11 months ago

looks like they got back a bit east of Kharkiv & to the north bank of the Dneipr---long before this last big 'offensive' tho. Russia might've given that pittance of territory up in a peace deal ooth.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 11 months ago (1 children)

havent they breach crimea lines? they are the offensive now so they could demand more.