My primary argument is that they post hateful content and covid conspiracies and it is irresponsible to platform this by including it in our federation. Secondly we already got rid of lemmygrad. Thirdly, there's little to be lost in the defederation given the type of stuff being posted over there. Do as thou wilt
Aye and nays pls
Edit: putting the screencaps I posted below here for clarity
I should probably put a content warning so
CW: homophobia, transphobia, and just being a shithead.
Edit 2: let's try not to downvote people just saying nay. Unless they are making bad faith arguments we should respect their opinions even if we disagree.
Edit 3: Imma be real with y'all, this has been a real shitshow. We gotta work out some kinda single voting infrastructure because the ayes and Nays isn't efficient at all.
I guess I'll be one of the first.
Nay, for now.
Defederation should be the last option. After we have exhausted all other options. Because it's the exchange of ideas, and exposure to other viewpoints, that helps reduce bigotry and hatred.
I'm well aware that a fascist is gonna fascist, no matter what someone tells them. There is no reasoning with them or trying to have a discourse with them because they only want to frustrate you. Those users should be blocked, or better, banned from our instance if possible. But there will be other users of that instance who are regular folk who simply like the idea of free speech. They should not be cut off and left to be turned by the fascists.
I don't have a lot of hope that the instance will change, but disconnecting them from everyone else lets them control the narrative of "us vs them."
We should be acting as a counter to their made up facts. And calling out the fallacies, as frustrating and tiring as it'll be. Not on their instance, obviously, but anywhere they try to spread their hate. Fascism has festered in our society for decades, and now we need to shine a light on it for everyone to see it for what it is. Not hide it away.
I understand what you're saying, and to some extent I agree. The worst of the worst in that instance know exactly what they're doing. I'm not saying we should argue directly with them.
I'm saying that by remaining federated with them, we act as a counter to their hate, and allow their users to experience posts that the instance can't control. We aren't going to change the minds of the worst of the worst. But we can change the minds of the average person.
I'm going to quote myself from another discussion in this thread, because I'm getting sleepy now.
And I wanted to reply to this:
We know they won't though. Like when the_donald was quarantined and banned, they'll simply spread out to other instances. And instead of one hydra head, you'll have many to deal with.
Ultimately, we may end up needing to defederate with them. But I want to try showing the regular people on that instance that their way of thinking isn't the only way. And that it's not a good way of thinking.
Thanks for the discussion. My body yearns for my bed, and my mind too sleepy to argue. If you want to continue, I'll reply tonight.
The problem being that they don't want to be convinced, they just double down. Experts refuse to debate them for this reason and you want laymen to do it instead?
The little you'll manage to bring back to reality is insignificant compared to the number they'll convert by being allowed to take part in discussions.
I think another point of view is we are not "convincing" the creators of this reprehensible content of anything.
We are, instead, posting opposing views which may expose persons who wind up down that rabbithole - on purpose or by misadventure - to a different way of viewing the world.
That Utopian concept said, "AYE."
People that won't fall down the rabbit hole in the first place if they're not exposed to these beliefs in the first place. They'll still see people with the opposing point of view though.
I agree with you that the worst of the worst in that instance will do exactly as you say. I have no interest in arguing with them, and if I see them here I'll block them.
But I am interested in acting as a counter to their hate, by having our posts show up in their feeds. If we can show their regular users how to have civil discourse, and expose them to new topics, we can get some to question the narrative.
They can come to our instance, sure. They can take part in our communities. But then they have to play by our rules, or get banned. Remember, a community lives on one instance and is propagated throughout the fediverse. Once they're outside of their walled garden, they won't be seeing that constant drip of hate.
And if any of that instance's users are questioning what they've read there, they can come to us for an opposing view.
Defederation doesn't prevent them from subscribing to communities here and seeing what we're saying, it prevents local users from seeing what they post on their instance and on our instance. People who question what they see here can just subscribe here or on an instance we're still federated with and come ask questions in good faith, it will be way easier to manage than letting all of them take part.
But again, experts don't debate them, we can't expect people who have no special training to be the social workers these people need when they've reached the deeper end.
Again, I don't want to debate or discuss with any of the repeat offenders in the posts that @chalkman showed us. You are right, we won't be able to save them, only they can do that.
I don't believe that every user on that instance is as bad as those folks, and the only way to make sure they don't end up like that is to show them another way.
And would you take part in a community that you couldn't interact with? In my case, I haven't gone to interact with any communities in Beehaw because what's the point?
If you don't want to interact with anyone from that instance, then don't. We have the tools, and likely more are coming with future updates to Lemmy. But one thing we can't forget is that these are people. I just want them to see that we are too.