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FIA wary of Audi 'quitting' F1 in ongoing V10 debate (racingnews365.com)

submitted 6 days ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

24 comments fedilink hide all child comments

The FIA's senior figure on F1 cars has expressed a worry Audi could quit if V10 engines are re-introduced to grand prix racing.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 6 days ago (2 children)

Arguably Internal Combustion Engines (ICE) are a dead end too, as we move to electric vehicles. I can't see F1 going fully electric anytime soon so I see the attraction of moving back to simple, light engines that create a lot of noise that fans enjoy.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (2 children)

I see the attraction of moving back to simple, light engines

Of the big lies the competitors to electric propulsion successfully spread is that hybrid is what's making the engines heavy. It's not. In F1 the ICE is over 100kg without the energy store (=fuel) whereas is hybrid unit is 20kg including energy (=battery).

a lot of noise that fans enjoy

If fans actually enjoyed the noise so much, why are so few people caring about LMP2? I think that's a loud minority. Actual motorsport fans care about the on-track competition more than the propulsion technology.

Of the overall F1 fan base, only a small minority ever attended an F1 race. The engine noise most encounter is the result of the broadcast audio mix.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 6 days ago

If fans actually enjoyed the noise so much, why are so few people caring about LMP2?

Endurance racing will always be a more challenging proposition for mainstream appeal than short 2-3 hour sprints. Being able to sit down for a couple of hours and get a winner is just much more attractive to most people. WRC suffers from the same issue even though it offers some superb driving.

I do however completely agree with you that the people who are hung up on engine noise are a very small but very vocal minority, and for the vast majority of fans the quality of the sound pales in comparison to the on track action. I like those old V10 noises as much as any other fan, but all I really care about at this point is getting back to smaller, nimbler cars. I don't really give a shit what they sound like.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Of the big lies the competitors to electric propulsion successfully spread is that hybrid is what’s making the engines heavy. It’s not. In F1 the ICE is over 100kg without the energy store (=fuel) whereas is hybrid unit is 20kg including energy (=battery).

In F1 the hybrid electric system is ment to augment the ICE, could not be soley deployed for a whole lap, or have the power to reach top speeds on a long strait. Comparing the two is intellectually dishonest.

The formula E cars have less range, lower top speed, and weigh almost 300kg more. It's not a conspiracy, it's where battery technology currently is.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 days ago (1 children)

In F1 the hybrid electric system is ment to augment the ICE

Yes, you just explained what a hybrid system is. We already understood this.

The formula E cars have less range, lower top speed, and weigh almost 300kg more.

That's not true.

Formula E Gen3 Evo: Minimum weight (incl. driver and battery): 856kg (Source)

Formula 1 2025: Minimum weight WITHOUT driver and fuel: 800kg (Source)

It’s not a conspiracy

The lie is that the hybrid system in its current form is what makes F1 cars heavy. That's factually not the case. It's 20kg out of 800kg.

The most weight in FE comes from spec parts which are not at the forefront of current technology. Cost is also a major factor.

Also, whether your 100% wrong claims about how much FE and F1 cars weigh are "conspiracy" is depending on if you are merely misinformed or lying on purpose. I make no judgement which of the two is the case.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Formula 1 2025: Minimum weight WITHOUT driver and fuel: 800kg (Source)

1st 800kg is with the driver source

2nd I'm not using the minimum weigh of an F1 car with the heavy pig hybrid system, that weight is 605kg. Source

The lie is that the hybrid system in its current form is what makes F1 cars heavy. That’s factually not the case. It’s 20kg out of 800kg.

Was this where you got that claim. ES weight is 20-25kg, 7 kg min for the mgu-k and ERS min of 30.6, that doesn't include extra weight in transmission for hybrid system, wiring, ES safety system, or extra weight for battery and mgu-k mounting.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 days ago (1 children)

1st 800kg is with the driver

OK, cool. Still not 300kg more than a FE car like you claimed. Seems your source is a donkey.

Was this where you got that claim.

My source is Mario Illien. If Mario misspoke, send a letter of complaint to:

Ilmor Engineering Ltd.

Quarry Road
Brixworth
Northamptonshire
NN6 9UB
UK

Anyhow: FE has no problem producing exciting races with actual overtakes in Monaco. So its means of propulsion is not the problem. If anything, in the same interview he criticized the F1 PU formula as too complicated and heavy and the type of hybrid system to be out of touch with road cars. His approach for a change this is fully electric propulsion with a very simple and much much lighter ICE as generator and relatively few battery cells. This is somewhat similar to the approach of Audi RS Q e-tron.

If you disagree with that approach, feel free to send another letter of complaint to the aforementioned address.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 days ago (1 children)

OK, cool. Still not 300kg more than a FE car like you claimed. Seems your source is a donkey.

I see you're bad at math 856 - 605 = 251 which is nearly 300kg.

My source is Mario Illien. If Mario misspoke, send a letter of complaint to:

Got caught in a lie, claim someone else told you that but don't give a source.

Anyhow: FE has no problem producing exciting races with actual overtakes in Monaco.

If overtakes are your metric for a good car than NASCAR cars are for you, they have hundreds of overtakes at Daytona.

His approach for a change this is fully electric propulsion with a very simple and much much lighter ICE as generator and relatively few battery cells. This is somewhat similar to the approach of Audi RS Q e-tron.

I personally prefer fast light cars but if the nissian leaf racing league is your jam more power to you.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I see you’re bad at math 856 - 605 = 251 which is nearly 300kg.

F1 cars weigh 800kg without fuel. Fully fueled, they're heavier than FE cars.

If overtakes are your metric for a good car

Yes

I personally prefer fast light cars

Then follow one. F1 clearly isn't for you then. Good bye.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 days ago

F1 cars weigh 800kg without fuel. Fully fueled, they’re heavier than FE cars.

Current f1 cars with heavy hybrid systems are. F1 cars without those weight 605 kg.

You will like NASCAR they use heavy cars and pass each other back and forth all the time.

Then follow one. F1 clearly isn’t for you then. Good bye.

F1 is getting lighter, once they get rid of the fat pig hybrid system they be much lighter.

[–] kata1yst 5 points 6 days ago (2 children)

Formula E is great, and their lap times are getting to the point they directly compete with F1 hardware, and F1 has a monopoly on the best drivers to boot.

Couple more years, and I think the constructors will be demanding all electric.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (2 children)

I absolutely hate the gimmicks Formula E introduced. Fan Boost, forced attack mode, pit boost, etc.

They make the series a chore to follow.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 days ago

Fan Boost

Long gone.

forced attack mode

Gen3 Attack Mode was stupid because it was a penalty, not an advantage. Gen3 Evo rules with all wheel drive under attack mode actually have the intended consequence to produce more attacks.

pit boost, etc.

Pit boost was fine. No more difficult to follow than WEC with its refueling. Pit boost's major downside IMO is that mechanics must not repair the car while it's charging, so cars with broken front wings or flat tire have little chance to catch up after the wing change with a lap down. Personally, I'd be in favor of battery swaps with solid state batteries in the side pods and mechanics would use pressure guns to bolt them off and on again, kinda similar to Nio EP9.

[–] kata1yst 3 points 5 days ago

Agreed. The gimmicks are garbage.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 days ago

Formula E times appear close because the tracks are different, take Monaco which is the same: F1 1:10.2, FE 1:29.7, F3 1:24.9